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February 2012

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Re 'the Great Commission': It was pointed out to me a while ago that a perfectly acceptable translation of Mat 28:19 is "Therefore, you will be going, making disciples....baptizing....", it's descriptive, not an assignment. So if, we live in unison with Him, and are just going (or staying) where He leads, disciples will be made, but He will make them, not us.

Exodus 37-38:31

Repetition of long lists is the stuff that absolutely drives new Bible readers’ batty, old readers also. This is the stuff that you read and wonder, “Why?” Why the repetition, it was boring then (Chapter 25-27) and it is boring now. Or if you were/are like me, you read sections like this going 100 miles per hour (sorry I am not into kilometers) just to get through it.

I know Mike spoke of this yesterday, before it was spoken of in future tense, now it is in the past tense. Today I think I got it! God may give us instructions, but do we carry those instructions out, here we are given what was done to measure against what was said. How often do we change what we were given to do because we know better? This happens very often when we are given orders by our bosses, or something is ordered by way of contract, we short change the directions. We may do it because we have greater knowledge then those giving the orders. (This is a common refrain, “My boss is an idiot. And if this falls through, I’ll be blamed.”) In reality, we short the order because we are saving the costs for our own pocketbooks or to save on “time,” it will take longer to use that particular material. The type of wood used, acacia wood is hard and very dense and to work with it would mean lots of time was needed to work the plans and to keep the tools sharpened. http://www.odu.edu/webroot/instr/sci/plant.nsf/pages/acacia Contractors frequently short the list of materials either by using cheaper materials or cutting the measurements of the job. We have compliance officers or inspectors, sometimes, who are paid off, to insure that the work is held to the original standard. We have this belief in the United States, at least, that “whistle blowers,” are to be shunned and possible fired, if they tell. In New York City, sometimes, with new tall Residential buildings, a building will build more stories than the zoning ordnances allowed or stated in the original plans. They usually are fined something inconsequential compared to what will be made on selling or renting out the extra floors, or they are told to build a public space, such as a park, on the grounds. This space is usually constructed to be hidden from public view.

God is giving us the tools to test not only His work, but the compliance of those who did the work. Unlike men, who look the other way or punish those who “tell”, God is in the Testing and Compliance business:

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (1 Corinthians 3:12-14 KJVR)


Grace and peace,
Ramona

Hebrews 9 (NKJV)
God through this passage lets us know that the earthly tabernacle (dwelling place of God with men) is a copy of the heavenly pattern.

23
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us..

Note from Exodus 37 the parts of the tabernacle that has a spiritual original and meaning for us today:

1.
the Ark of the Testimony
2.
the Table for the Showbread
3.
the Gold Lampstand
4.
the Altar of Incense
5.
the Anointing Oil and the Incense
6.
the Altar of Burnt Offering
7.
the Bronze Laver
8.
the Court of the Tabernacle
9.
the Tabernacle

OF COURSE, there is the OUTER COURTS, THE HOLY PLACE, and THE HOLY OF HOLIES

Note how important THE PEOPLE'S part is in giving worship through money in BUILDING the tabernacle in Exodus 38 (NKJV):
27
And from the hundred talents of silver were cast the sockets of the sanctuary and the bases of the veil...

~~~
Giving ourselves away to the Lord is worship. And giving our money is really a necessary means of ordering our hearts before the Lord. As the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 6 (NKJV) --
20
...lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

~~~

This fits right in with praying, giving, and working to make disciples and missions. WHERE AND HOW we spend our time and money is VERY IMPORTANT. This is NOT to lay a guilt trip on anybody... JUST THE TRUTH.

~~~

May I-- may we-- use our time and money to build into our lives the TRUE SUBSTANCE of the FEAR OF THE LORD. This glory will never fade away, and is eternal.

Psalm 34 (NKJV)
11
Come, you children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
12
Who is the man who desires life, And loves many days, that he may see good?
13
Keep your tongue from evil,
And your lips from speaking deceit.
14
Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.

NOTE: SEEK PEACE FIRST AND FOREMOST WITH GOD. Note in James 3 (NKJV) the PRIMARY QUALITY OF PURITY OF the wisdom of God:

17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
18
Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

~~~

I Corinthians 15 (NKJV)
49
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[a] the image of the heavenly Man.

[a] NOTE: or... let us also bear [the image of the heavenly Man].

~~~
I John 3 (NKJV)
1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,
BUT WE KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.

Vance

I agree with Dallas Willard that the least practiced part of the 'Great Commission' is the part that says, "teach them to obey everything I have commanded you." It seems the Christian community has no shortage of people who are eager to 'go', and eager to 'baptize' but where are the men and women who engage in the very rewarding but painstaking work of investing in another person's life with a view to helping those individuals 'obey' all things Jesus commanded?Although 'obey'is a better word and stronger word, maybe what we are trying to do is teach people to 'pay attention to God, to take Him seriously' as is implied by the concept of 'the fear of the Lord.' "Come, my children,and listen to me, and I will teach you the fear of the Lord." Ps 34:11 Now there's good 'old testament disciplemaking--inviting someone to 'come' and then as we go together 'to teach'.

I am also very encouraged by the promise attached to those who take 'making disciples' seriously, "I will be with you always." It's true that He is omniscient (although we can't prove that except that the scriptures tell us), but I can move confidently into my world to relate to those disconnected from God, and those who want to grow closer to God, knowing that He is at work in and through me, whether I feel His presence or not.

Luch, see my trackback post above...

I remember having a similar conversation with my mom many years ago, about how evangelical churches (one of which I grew up in) all to often gave the appearance of "get 'em here and get 'em dunked", but had very little emphasis on the life of a Christian after baptism. Hebrews reminds us that - at the appropriate time - we must wean ourselves from the "milk" and advance to the "meat" of discipleship.

Andrew B,

Re: Great commission

Yes, it is true that the translation you cited is valid. But it goes further than just a future action.

Greek has a special tense that English does not have: the "Aorist" tense. The verbs in the " Great commission" are all aorist tense of some kind.

The aorist tense denotes ongoing action (into the future) that has a sense of completion.

The idea of completion refers to what Luch, CB, and David Jeremiah (on today's radio message) said - the important thing is to 'teach them to obey (observe)all the commands...' Without teaching the new disciples to obey, the growth in Christian maturity will not occur. By completing the 'making of disciple', "baptizing", and most importantly the 'teaching' - the church (body of Christ) can perpetuate and grow from the work of the new disciples.

The teaching should be by intstruction and by example.

"go" means to depart and keep on going and the completion will be in the following steps - "make", "baptize", and "teach".

Some links that talk about aorist tense and "the Great Commission". In order of value to discussion.

http://www.biblical-counsel.org/commiss2.htm

http://www.biblical-counsel.org/commiss1.htm

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1588

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=1&source=1&seq=i.47.28.4

Veil/Curtain (cont.)

Since the curtain is mentioned in today's O.T. reading, I want to follow a line of thought.

As per my post yesterday, that the torn curtain represented Jesus' death and thru him access to God. Referencing Hebrews: 10:19-21.

If that is true, than what does the "whole"(untorn) curtain represent. Well, it would have to be Jesus alive representing his humanity, and He performs the act of separating (common man)us from God.

In the New Testament:
"The Life of Christ does not save us; it condemns us! - J. Vernon McGee

Just like the Law that no one could live up to; no one can live up to Jesus' teachings or lifestyle. It is only through his death (torn curtain), the shedding of blood, and our acceptance of Him that we acheive salvation. Christ's teachings can not save us, only his death on the Cross saves us.

God was well pleased with His Son as He stated on different occasions. We, as sinners, can never please God - no matter how many good things we do on earth. Only when God sees Jesus (man/woman covered in his blood) are we pleasing to God.

It saddens me today when I see ministries and institutions advocating the following of Jesus' teachings (Beatitudes, Love, compassion, etc.) without teaching the cross, salvation, or the "just and righteous" side of our Priest/King. Even more so, when they do not emphasize the neccesity of Salvation to be seen worthy in God's eye.

Don't get me wrong. as Christians we need to follow Jesus' teachings, but without salvation - they are worthless. In fact the are worse than that - they are iniquity.

Matt 7:22-23
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'(NIV)

Knew in verse 23 is (Gk.)Ginosko. It is the same "knew" as in "relations" of a marriage couple. If we are not one with Christ - 'He abides in us, and we in Him'. Then no matter what we do, our fate is sealed.

John,

Could the curtain alternately represent the Law? Since it was the establishment of the Law that identified/defined sin, hence establishing the separation of man from God?

(See Romans 5:12-13)

Chip,

Great catch and thoughtful insight in your statement, "Could the curtain alternately represent the Law? " God's Word, like Him, is multi-faceted.

Jesus fulfilled the Law, thus the Law/curtain was torn/pierced. There is a term called Piercing the Corporate Veil which is used in terms of business when dealing with a business that is incorporated. A corporation is an artificial person by law. If you want to go after the Board of Directors, you can't unless certain conditions are present. If legally those things are proved to be present, then you can pierce the corporate veil and go after the Board. The veil being torn means we gain access to God directly and no longer have to use the priestly system to approach God.

Great Call wonderful insight!!

John, Thanks for the references on the aorist tense in Mat 28:18-20. So it seems a valid translation is something like 'While you are going, disciples will be made in/of all nations, they will be baptised ... and taught ...'.

As He walked along the shore of the lake, Jesus knew which ones were ripe for the call, "Follow me". Don't we need that kind of discernment? We should be able to hear the Spirit as we walk across the market place, as we ride the subway, as we hang around the coffee machine in the office - "that one is ripe - he is ready to hear, call him". Isn't that so? Otherwise, dumping a discipleship training course on the wrong people can be seriously counterproductive, don't you think?

CB,

Perhaps, let me think about it for a while.

The obvious comparison is:

-No one could stand up to or fulfill the Law - all come short.

-No one can stand up in a comparison to the physical manifestation of Christ, much less Christ in heaven (then or now). We all fall short.

In such a sense, both separate us from God who is Holy (separate, distinct).

Off the top of my head - The Law had a point in time starting place. Christ is from everlasting.

So what does the curtain represent: Something from a point in time referenced by instructions to Moses? Or do all the implements constructed have to do with mankind's relationship with God. The things we need to do and/or be aware of about God. And if so, do these relationships have a different starting point - such as from the sin in the Garden - but are finally expressed here in the God instructed construction of His Holy Place.

[Last paragraph is just "thinking out loud". Excellant question and point - I really do need to think about it more.]

Chip,

Or what Ramona said :)

Andrew B,

Yes, I think you are right.

Here is the instruction to go out and do it, and do it in a complete way. However, I don't think that the Apostles (or we) would be very successful if we were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

I pray for that discernment all the time, and ask for the Holy Spirit to use me as a conduit, for I alone can not do it. But let the Spirit speak thru me so the words that need to be said can be heard by those that need to hear.

And of course I want to be educated and molded by the Spirit so that the sanctification process would continue, and my "walk" is down a righteous path. So people would see me as different and want to know how and why? If it were not for the Holy Spirit, I am sure I would be off lost in some dense forest, and of no use to God or man. :)

Of course, it's a Trojan Horse...

The Law pointed to Christ - sanctification through the Law, for those before the Messiah, was really due to faith in the Messiah who was to come, that is, Christ.

So, to say that the curtain represented Christ, or to say that it represented Christ, really is saying much the same thing, albeit from differing perspectives...

Chip,

At your leisure - please elaborate through email, a post, or links to something that would "flesh" out your thoughts.

I struggle with:

"The Law pointed to Christ - sanctification through the Law, for those before the Messiah, was really due to faith in the Messiah who was to come, that is, Christ."

And for those before the Law - from Adam to Moses? They were imputed to righteousness thru faith (belief) in God and the Word imparted up to that time?

Sorry, lack of sleep may be contributing to my denseness.

John,

I'm up way later than I should be tonight... but I will make a note to post something on the subject as soon as time permits!

Andrew,

It pays to go back and reread not only the scriptures but folks comments. Reread the comments of the day this morning (Wed, Feb 15), and was absolutely floored by this,

“As He walked along the shore of the lake, Jesus knew which ones were ripe for the call, "Follow me". Don't we need that kind of discernment? We should be able to hear the Spirit as we walk across the market place, as we ride the subway, as we hang around the coffee machine in the office - "that one is ripe - he is ready to hear, call him". Isn't that so? Otherwise, dumping a discipleship training course on the wrong people can be seriously counterproductive, don't you think?”

Could this “dumping” you mention be filled under or with the comment Jesus made,

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matthew 7:6 KJVR)

WOW, WOW, WOW!!


Chip,

That get’im dunk mentality I believe is one of an immature Christian giving birth to “baby” Christians. Women/teenagers who have babies because they just want someone to “love” them, instead of having them because they are 1) able to not only invest into their lives and future, as well as 2) support them by giving them what is needful for growth and maturity, usually have children that they cannot teach because they are unable to give them anything: Babies having babies.

Could it be that we are not spending time growing up in the faith before we decide to “disciple” someone? We can only pass on to our children/disciples what we have within us, baby tendencies will only be passed on to the babies we not only give birth to but to those we chose to disciple.

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