April 3rd readings

~ Click on this link for today's readings ~
Deuteronomy 23:1-25:19 ~ Luke 10:13-37
Psalm 75:1-10 ~ Proverbs 12:12-14

Old Testament - Quite a few miscellaneous and interesting regulations in our readings today!  :)  All in all, very good advice of course.  Deuteronomy chapter 25 verse 4 tells us this wise advice - "Do not keep an ox from eating as it treads out the grain."  I think it is quite fair for an ox to eat while he's working!

 

New Testament - Luke chapter 10 verse 20 is an incredible teaching from Jesus for us to heed even today - "But don't rejoice just because evil spirits obey you; rejoice because your names are registered as citizens of heaven."  I do think that sometimes we rejoice over the wrong things - secondary things.  The primary thing is our relationship with Jesus.  And then there are secondary good things that perhaps we do or are involved with in the Kingdom.  But, don't rejoice over those.  Rejoice that you are in an eternal relationship with Jesus Christ.  That is the one thing that matters.

 

Today in Luke chapter 10 verse 21 we read – “At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.” What a great opening line – Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit! In your life today - are you full of joy through the Holy Spirit? Do you want to be? I read a great commentary from Tyndale’s One Year Bible companion on this verse with this wonderful Q & A - “What was Jesus’ relationship to the Holy Spirit? Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, baptized by the Holy Spirit, anointed by the Holy Spirit, guided by the Holy Spirit, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and filled with the Holy Spirit. He lives in union with the Holy Spirit, and was dependent upon the Holy Spirit.” What is your relationship with the Holy Spirit today? Are you dependent upon the Holy Spirit in your life?

If you are interested in studying more about the Ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives please check out these incredible commentaries from Bob Deffinbaugh at Bible.org on the Holy Spirit –
http://bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2383
http://bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2125
http://bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2124

Today we read the famous story of the Good Samaritan.  This story always convicts me to ask myself - "Who is my neighbor?"  Who is your neighbor?  Bible.org's commentary on our Luke chapter 10 readings today titled "The Source of True Joy" is at this link, and commentary titled "The Good Samaritan" is at this link.  Below is a painting from 1890 by Vincent van Gogh titled "The Good Samaritan" -

Psalms - Psalm 75 verse 7 is so powerful and so true... I need to hear this over and over again - "It is God alone who judges; he decides who will rise and who will fall."  You and I do not judge.  Well, we might try to judge, but it's all in vain if we do.  And we risk turning judgment onto ourselves when we do.  God alone judges.  God alones decides who will rise and who will fall.  We do not.  God is God.  We are not.  This is a very good thing to always remember! :)  We should also always remember we are so not this man below when it comes to other people's hearts or eternal destinies... 

Proverbs - Proverbs chapter 12 verse 14 is a beautiful Proverb - "People can get many good things by the words they say; the work of their hands also gives them many benefits."  I think it is safe to say that we should speak and work and there will be benefits!  :)  It is true I think that work is a very good thing.  I'm sure you're probably like me at times and dream about winning the lottery.  This seems like it would be ideal.  We wouldn't have to work.  We could just do what we wanted.  Trust me - this would be a curse.  We need work.  I think it blesses us immensely to work.  And indeed it gives many benefits - and not just $.  The benefits include confidence and skills and friendships and socialization and this list could go on.  The work of our hands gives us many benefits.  Forget the lottery.  You don't want that trouble.  :)  Let us get to work!

What verses or insights jumped out for you in today's readings?  Please post up in the Comments section below!

Grace,
Mike

Comments

[Emberglow]

Thanks for your answer John. God's plan? original plan? changed plan.. ?Actually, your answer has created another PROFOUND question in my mind.

If the Original Sin had not taken place, Jesus would never have to be crucified? In order for Jesus to come here Adam and Eve had to make a mistake.. But hold on.... the main reason behind the Original Sin was Satan. Culprit from the very beginning....

That touches another most burning conundrum regarding God's predestination, foreknoweledge and sovereign Will.. With all knowledge about future... WHY GOD CREATED SATAN in the first place?? If there was no Satan, there would be no Bible..

[Jan]

From what I understand from the Bible, Lucifer/satan was the angel of worship...that is what he was created for & obviously had a free will because he chose to "try" to usurp God & then a 1/3 of the angles had a "choice" to follow him. There is a book out by Windy Alec on the subject of Lucifer/satan: The Fall of Lucifer

Three Archangels ... Three Brothers .... One Turned Renegade

For eons the love and kinship of three royal angelic brothers - Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer -have echoed through the hallowed halls of the first heaven.

Lucifer, prince regent and eldest brother. Yehovah's viceroy. Imperial. Brilliant. Passionate. Most adored of heaven. Michael, the warrior -commander of the angelic host. Valiant. Wise and steadfast. Gabriel - the youngest prince. Newly inaugurated. The revelator.

Throughout eternity Lucifer has been heaven's favored prince. Gifted. Ardent. Devoted. His throne second only to the Most High - until the fateful moment when he is informed about Yehovah's new innovation. The creation of a new race that is not angelic in nature. A race created of a three-hundred-billion-base DNA sequence that will constitute the human genome code.

A sweeping epic of origins and mysteries, The Fall of Lucifer tells a tale older than the universe itself. Set in opulent palaces and frightening hell worlds, this is a timeless saga of doubt, of demons and angelic warriors, of obsessive love and treason, and of an ancient evil that knows no bounds.

Soon the universe itself will be rocked by war ....
A war between three angelic brothers ...
A war fought for the greatest prize in the universe ...
The war for the race of men.

Table of Contents

Prologue: Petra - 2017: The Lower Temenos - the Great Temple

The First Heaven
The Inauguration
The Portals
Eden
Matins
The Revelator
Man
Treason
The Sword Chamber
Seeds of Sedition
Ebony
Indisposed
Glory
Stone of Fire
Tower of Winds
War in Heaven
East of Eden
Gabriel
The Title Deeds
Road to Perdition
The Penitentiary
The Trespasser in the Kingdom
The Coronation
The Demon Seed
The Verdict
The Ark
Judgment
Tartarus
Two by Two
The Fountains of the Deep
Babylon
The Claim
The Holy Mountain of God
The Vaults
Ex Nihilo
The Temptation
The Nova
Mul Bar Bar
Darkened Counsels
Reunion
Petra - 2017

[Laura Jones]

Wow Jan: I've never read that book or known of those facts. That sure sounds interesting. It puts a few things into perspective. I believe that Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan and disobeyed God who told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge and life. Satan told them that if they did they would be wise. Adam and Eve could not resist the temptation to sin and we know the rest of the story. The fall of Adam and Eve. Man at that time was separated from God by his desire to act on his own.

In the case of man's sin,however, God already had a plan in motion to overcome the effects of the rebellion. The entire bible is the story of how that plan unfolds,ultimately leading to God's own visit to earth through his son, Jesus. His sinless life and death made it possible for God to offer forgiveness to all who want it. Our small and large acts of rebellion prove that we are descendants of Adam. Only by asking forgiveness of Jesus Christ can we become children of God.

I hope that helps Emberglow with the question he asked yesterday and clears a few things up.

[Anka]

Hmmm sounds like a very interesting book.Will look out for it!
1 No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD.
I always wondered why transexuals are predominantly males wanting to be females!!It's actually another rebellion against God's written word.God cares so much about the male reproductive part that a harsh punishment is given to anyone who tempers with it.
The Israelites also had to be taught were to "relieve" themselves...don't even want to think what the camp was like before God gave this rule:(
Wonder what he meant when Jesus replied that he saw satan fall out of heaven after the 72 told him how they cast out demons.Satan fell out before that...demons had been cast out by Jesus before...so why did he make that statement...was it that he was explaining that he was there when satan was cast out...and satan had no idea before then that the name Jesus was going to always rule over him even if used by us humans...just a thought.
God bless you all

[John]

Emberglow,

Very good question. God does foreknow, in fact to Him it is all done. Let me explain. Scientists estimate that the universe is made up of nine dimensions. For God to create the universe He must be greater than nine dimensions. We have no way to possibly grasp what God "is" based on our human perceptions. God does not just see the future, He is the past present and future. He sees it all at once. At least that is my understanding of this concept.

Jesus was chosen for his role as "redeemer" of mankind before the creation of the world. God knew how it it all unfolds.

1Peter 1:18-20
"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake."

So why did God create Satan? Mankind? Earth? etc. - knowing how it all turns out????

We are not in the gospel of John yet, but throughout the gospel Jesus continually refers to the "Glory" of the Father. Everything created brings "Glory" to the Father. How is that possible????

Mercy and Grace are two of God's attributes that were not on display before the rebellion of Satan, and the sin in the Garden. Before this, the Trinity had perfect Love and harmony, the angels praised and glorified God, and Adam/Eve walked and commmuned with God. After the sin episode, we all deserved to die in separation from God after our earthly existence. God showed mercy by paying our debt for us through Jesus, and gave people the grace to realize his plan, accept it and live with him forever. His Mercy and Grace on display Glorify His Name.

Justice and righteousness were two more attributes not on display. There was no need for either as the angels and Adam/Eve originally did not disobey God. Then one third of the Angels rebelled led by Satan. Mankind sinned in the Garden. The angels knew God "fully" with perfect knowledge, there is no excuse for their sin. They will receive justice (and they know it as seen by demons pleading with Jesus in Gospels). Mankind has a choice - accept the mercy and grace of God and live with him forever, or refuse the offer and live eternally separated from God. God's perfect justice and righteousness on display Glorify His Name.

In the end - EVIL will be destroyed. This complete destruction of Satan and his followers - demons and that portion of mankind - will mean eternal punishment and separation from God for those that rebelled. The redeemed will live for eternity with God in perfect "bliss". This eradication of EVIL Glorifies God's Name.

God did not create EVIL. He created Angels and mankind. The choice was the angels (individually), and Adam/eve's originally to follow God or rebel (turn away).

So in the end, God knew all this but created everything anyway - Why? To bring Glory to His Name.

How does mankind actually benefit from all this? If there was no sin we would have lived on earth as caretakers of a perfect world. We would have walked and communed with God and had spiritual life forever on earth. The "sin occurred" and mankind screwed up. But if WE take advantage of God's Mercy and Grace, WE get something EVEN better. We get to be with God in heaven and for eternity as adopted children of God and co-inheritors of the Kingdom.

God takes something that became all screwed up and in the end it is better than it was originally -Eden was Paradise. That definately Glorifies His Name.

[John]

Anka,

"Wonder what he meant when Jesus replied that he saw satan fall out of heaven after the 72 told him how they cast out demons"

I have two ways of looking at it - perhaps others have a different view.

1) Affirms Jesus' deity. He was there - he was not a created being as some religious sects proclaim. As deity, Jesus had the power and authority to cast out demons. As a sign of greater power, Jesus could authorize others (disciples) to cast out demons. Shows complete domination of Satan and his minions by the Lord - who afterall dismissed Satan from his heavenly place and role.

2) My preferred explanation - look at verses 18-20. Jesus is reminding disciples that Satan fell. Fell because of Pride. They are given authority, but Jesus is warning do not be full of pride lest you fall as Satan. Never construe the power given to you as something YOU do - lest you get full of pride. Realize that this power comes from God, rejoice in that and that your names are written in heaven.

[Ramona]

Deuteronomy 23:1-25:19

God is a God of order, decency, decorum and respect, a true gentleman through and through. How He is is how we are to treat others, with dignity, integrity and respect whether poor, widowed, orphaned or foreign. None is to be taken advantage of even the people who do not look like you or me. Now, this God I like. No, that is not right, this is a God I can love.

Grace and peace,
Ramona

[Emberglow]

Thanks for your comments. I think there is much food for though and much to consider. I will be reflecting on it. But another question comes to my mind regarding our relationship with God.

We are individuals with individual souls. What I cannot understand (as it is nowhere mentioned in the Bible) where do the new souls are coming from?? God breathed life into the nostril of Adam and it was a new creation and then God created Eve from the rib of Adam.

But now as the world population has exploded to 6 Billion (and fast increasing) where do the individual souls come from? Do we exist before our birth as souls ? How many more are to come ?

One Psalm says God knits us in our mother's womb but what about the soul and the conscience ?

[John]

"Except for Adam, the Bible makes no clear remark regarding the origin of the soul." -CARM

The important thing is: We all have one. There will be as many souls to come as people.

Truthfully, this is not anywhere near my "top ten list" of questions to ask God when I go to him in heaven.

Perhaps someone else will be able to offer more insight.

[Laura Jones]

Continuing with the discussion from yesterday and Emberglow's questions: I want to add that, God knew us before we were born. God's purpose for people was not an afterthought. It was settled before the foundation of the world. I believe, God foreknew those who would respond to him and upon those he set his mark(predestined). People are to serve and honor God. If you have believed in Christ you can rejoice in the fact that God has always known you. God's love is eternal. His wisdom and power are supreme. He will guide and protect you until you one day stand in his presence. I take this to mean that he knew our souls beforehand. My own personal belief, correct me if I'm wrong.

It says in Romans 8:30 And those He predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorifed. Ephesians 1:11 says, we are predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:5 says In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. The word predesdined means marked out beforehand. Salvation is God's work not our own doing. God has adopted us as His own children. Through Jesus sacrifice, he has brought us into his family and made us heirs along with Jesus as it says in Romans 8:17

[Emberglow]

Hi Laura, of course Romans mentions predestination. But this is a very sensitive issue to tinker with. Sadly, Presbyterians and I think it is Westminster Confession that has institutionalized Predestination originally stressed by Calvin. According to them only those God has pre-elected will get to heaven.

But then it cuts all scope for evangelism and human free- will. People can say well if I am predestined for hell it's not upto me to accept the message. So, correct way to say is God predestined all for heaven but it is for us to respond and accept God's grace and salvation. I believe it would be useful to add these Bible verses:

"He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
John 6:37.

Interestingly, Presbyterians have this predestination concept as their official creed. But they are one of the liberal denominations. They always offer explanations when people get upset by totalitarian predestination. I wonder why can't they just delete their confessions and creeds and come back to the Word of God.

[John]

Emberglow,

"But then it cuts all scope for evangelism and human free- will"

How so?

"So, correct way to say is God predestined all for heaven but it is for us to respond and accept God's grace and salvation."

pre·des·tine (pr-dstn)
tr.v. pre·des·tined, pre·des·tin·ing, pre·des·tines
1. To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain.

So God could be wrong?

[shane]

The reason Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, Edwards, et al, believed in predestination is because it's in the Bible. If one believes in heaven and hell, and believes God, as Sovereign Lord, can send those He wishes to those places, then predestination obviously follows. Not to mention, of course, Eph 1 and Rom 8-10, as well as John 6 and John 10 for starters.
The classic rejoinder about free will assumes to great of an ability in man. Christians don't really believe in free will, do we? Is our will free from a sin nature? Once your saved, aren't you a new creation? Is that 'new creation's' will free? If it is, if the old creation had free will, and the new creation has free will, then what's the difference between the pre-Christian and the Christian? Doesn't such a notion render Phil 2:13 meaningless?

Paul uses "predestine" several times, and it's not up to us to say he didn't really mean to use that word, because then we're indicting the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Scripture in the first place.

Rest assured, predestination is not what condemns people to hell, we're condemned already. Predestination is what enables people to go to heaven. A fair reading of Eph 1 and 2 yields no other result.

Evangelism is still important because God determines the ends and the means. So, He comands in Rom. 10 to preach, because faith comes through hearing.

All arguments regarding the will, evangelism, etc. must still answer this: The Holy Spirit inspired Eph 1-2 and Rom 8-10, so what say you to God's ability to choose His words?

[emberglow]

Hmm.. John Shane responded adequately. But I would like to add something. I remember your own words where you said it must be that God has more dimensionsw than those known to man and science. God must exist in past, present, future at the same time. Our free human Will exists within that realm. So, yes, given all the time and choices we can accept or reject God by our own free will.

In the end God will judge ,''Accordingly''... he will judge even those who never heard of Jesus (they will not automatically go to hell because they will be judged according to God's law that is written on their conscience)

''For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.'' (Romans 2:14-16)

[John]

I appreciate your thoughts, but that was not the question. Based on your statement below, and the definition of "predestine" - the question was:

So God could be wrong?

[Note: Perhaps this all should be left until we get to areas of the Bible in oneyearbibleblog that specifically bring up these topics]
======================================================

So, correct way to say is God predestined all for heaven but it is for us to respond and accept God's grace and salvation."

pre·des·tine (pr-dstn)
tr.v. pre·des·tined, pre·des·tin·ing, pre·des·tines
1. To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain.

So God could be wrong?

[Peggy Williams]

My thoughts about, What is my relationship with the Holy Spirit? He is my everything. I depend on the Holy spirit to guide me, to protect my mind, to control my tongue. I would me nothing without the Holy Spirit in my life. Have a blessed day Peggy

[Emberglow]

Just a short note. God is inherently good and holy. We don't worship God only because He is so powerful but also because He is our Abba, the Father. So, with this in mind I can conclude that God predestines all for Heaven. I think some passages of Gospel of John are good insights.

John 6:37, ''...and WHOSOEVER comes to me I will never cast out.''

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I think there are times when we have to interpret verses. That's why we are given Holy spirit and fellowship so we can study and understand together.

Predestination is a tough one. BUT if you happen to read Westminster Confession bits that deal with Predestination you may find it an opinion. The talk of the chosen ones, THE ELECT who are predestined. Makes Salvation sound so eclectic and elitist. It is good to have a look at other pasages that clearly suggest something other than this ''predestination''

[shane]

Christ saying that whosoever comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out explains precisely the certainty that the predestined have.

Look, the words "elect," "predestine,"foreknowledge," "chose," are all used in the Bible, and used in reference to salvation. Nobody balks at Abraham, Noah, or Moses being chosen, what makes you different?

Predestination is not elitist, it's humbling. It's saying that I don't even have the ability to freely choose, absent God doing something in me first. It's saying that "salvation is of the Lord" and no one else. It's saying that but for the grace of God, and that alone, I'd go to hell.

And indeed, those who are "born again," Christ will not cast out. But did you choose to be born the first time? Did you choose to be the old creation? Then why do you have free will to choose to be born again, or become a new creation.

John says that those who receive Christ, "were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Such a verse explains why Christ casts no one out who comes to Him. But it also explains how He can pray in John 17, "I pray not for the world, but for those whom You have given Me." There is a difference, you see, between the saved and unsaved, and that difference, simply, is that God gave the saved to Christ, and passed over the unsaved to be condemned by their own sin--their own will, if you please.

[Ramona]

Just throwing out something to chew on regarding predestination, and hopefully kind of ease us back on track to the text for the day (April 6th) I am into analogies so here goes,

Everyone who completes successfully the New York City Police Department's Police Academy and passes their background check is predestined to all where a blue uniform designed for policemen and women

[Emberglow]

I hate to make this comment section long but I must add that the ''election'' of Noah, Moses, Abraham is no comparison to NT free gift of salvation for all creation through Christ. That's why they say no matter how grave your sins maybe, if you truly repent, are born again, come to Christ, you have salvation.

I do believe that in the God's immense plan there is something called free choice or free Will that enables us to accept or reject God. If predestination is so predestined then I wonder if God predestined Satan to be evil (in that case Satan is absolutely innocent) ? I think not. Satan used his free will to rebel against God.

[shane]

2 quick points.

1. Ramona, your analogy fails, because the Bible speaks in terms of God doing the action. "Predestine" being a verb, and God being the actor. Whereas, your analogy has the people as actors, and the result being "ratification" and not predestination.

Ember, the point of Paul's argument in Romans 3-4 is that Abraham, et al, in the OT were saved in the same manner as NT saints - through faith alone. Paul then outlines the genesis of man's faith later in Romans, 8-10, but most clearly in Phil 1 and Eph 2, stating that faith itself is a gift of God.

[shane]

Oh, one more thing, regarding predestining evil. See Acts 2:23. Also, see Is. 46:10, and Eph. 1. God declares the end from the beginning. And did Isaiah not prophesy about Judas, wasn't that the predertimined plan of God?

Man is responsible for his sins, but rest assured he is incapable of doing otherwise--Rom. 3, and Rom. 5; Eph 2:1-3.

Regardless of what you think, you must respond to those texts, for the Bible is the final arbiter of truth.

Oh, and God does predestine evil. Follow this:

Is God sovereign?
Can He change the future?
Can He see when one is going to commit an evil act?
Could he prevent said act?
When He chooses not to, is He predestining that Act?

The answers to all must be yes, otherwise you've rendered the words meaningless. That doesn't make God the author of evil, but He does permit it, and He does plan for it.

Who hardened Pharoah's heart????

[Emberglow]

Answer to all those questions is surely yes (All secret things belong to God, so it can't be logically explained). I do believe in God's foreknowledge. And God definitly changes hearts to meet His own purposes. And I don't doubt He writes our destiny and 'knits us in our mother's womb'. All born again believers can confess how God continued to draw them towards Him. But they would also remember how they continued to respond.

In order to be God's love perfect God must allow perfect free will. He gives us free- will because he loves us so much. He does not make us robots. Even Deutronomy mentions, "I have set before you life and death" but it doesnt add 'but don't worry about making a decision because I will decide whether you get eternal life or death.'

Jesus is the perfect bridge to unite us with God. No doubt 'Father draws us' but we do have a choice to follow or reject. Total predestination means no one is responsible for their bad actions, all the murders, rapes, child sex abuses occur because God must have predestined it to glorify his name? And also mechanical predestination renders all prayer invalid. Since, everything is predestined prayer is nothing more than useless babbling.

Total predestination is nothing new that Calvin coined. Predestination is the main tenet of most Eastern religions and is menifest in many shades like doom, fate, destiny etc. My point at the end is despite God's total sovereinty and foreknowledge his love for us is what gives us will of our own to respond to his love.

[shane]

Ember, follow me here.. this is a tough concept.

there is something in between free will, and robot.

1. Can you lose your salvation?

2. If answer to 1 is no, then you don't have a will that is free to totally reject God.

3. If all man's will is free, then how is the "new heart and new spirit" different than the old?

4. Did Paul, in Romans 7, believe his will was free, "the things I don't WANT to do, that I keep on doing."

5. Did Paul believe in free will in Romans 6 when he says you're a SLAVE to sin or a SLAVE to righteousness.

6. Did Paul believe in free will when he wrote Phil 2:13 "for it is God works in you both to ACT and to WILL...."

7. Is the heart deceitfully wicked? If so, is that a free heart?

8. "No one can come to me unless the Father enables (helcuo) him." That word that is "draw" in some translations and "enable" in others, actually means "compelled" in the Greek. Don't take my word for it. Look it up. See how it's used elsewhere in the NT.

9. When God hardened Pharoah's heart, was Pharoah's heart free?

10. THIS IS THE BIG ONE. Is man capable of not sinning?

I know how you must answer #10. And if you think man MUST sin, then to say his will is free is far too grand a term (to borrow from Edwards and Luther).

[Emberglow]

Thanks for your 10 questions Shane. They are rather very simple to answer especially the last one. I will do a quick sweep and then write an exhaustive Biblical recap of Free- Will, which is important to get the full picture... But first the main questions:
1.) Yes, one can surely lose salvation even after accepting Christ. This is not to say when one is in moment of pain or doubt and one dies (maybe commit suicide) only to find himself in hell. But only when we willfully reject Jesus persistently (thus, we reverse the conversion and forfeit God's salvation). Then our name must be removed from the book of life. Truth is we have no excuse for rejecting God. When we do reject God, excuses are all we have.

2.) Answered automatically.

3. If YOU accept God , you are renewed. God ALREADY accepted you when He sent Jesus, Yeshua for all creation.

4, 5, 6. Sin deeply resides in us after the Original sin was committed. Even little, sweet and innocent-looking human children are sinful and selfish. We have a disease that urges us to sin, lust, covet, lie, steal, kill for selfish reasons and dark pleasures. Sin also makes us reject God and follow all other gods that give us sensual and egotistic gratification. Sin is so deeply embedded in us:

''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.'' ROmans 6:23

6,7,8. But having said that God loves us perfectly. We are created in the image of God. He wrote His laws on our conscience and hearts. (Romans 2:14-16) Using our Free Will (another gift of God resulting from His love for us) we can choose life or death. God stands at the door and He gives you chances time and again (just like He gave so many Chances to Israel). And only when we open our heart and respond to Father's love, Father will draw us more and more. In fact Father ALWAYS draws us because he LOVES us. We have no excuse not to be drawn to the GOD ALMIGHTY. But yet people do reject God.Phil 2:13 does not contradict Free Will. All good that we do is because of the grace and goodness of God. But we must be open to recognize and receive God's love in order to show love to fellow human beings. God does not force us to be good. But our goodness is only a reflection of God's own holiness and goodness.A very small example of this would be: we all know how pleasing it is to smile at people and get their smiles back, yet many people choose not to smile. Indeed, many people choose to hurt others including our own family and friends.

Jesus was sent because all laws could never be kept. We were too depraved. Jesus came to bridge the separation between man and God. Jesus came to offer salvation to ALL creation.

''For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.'' 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

But we also have the OTHER father that panders to our sinful self. He lures us, tempts us, lies to us, confuses us. This is Satan. There is a battle between God and Satan for the human heart and soul. And it is for human beings to open their hearts to God using their free- will.

Book of Job is a great lesson in human Free- will. Satan challenges God that Job's faith would go into pieces if he faces bad times. God allows Satan to test Job (but restrains him from taking Job's life). Of course, God would have known beforehand that Job will be true to Him till the end. But God did not predestine Job to be faithful. Otherwise, the bet with Satan would be an eyewash. And thus unfolds the painful book. Job is tormented beyond imagination. There are times when his faith is horribly shaken, he wails, mourns, cries and at times almost blames God. Some of his friends add to his pain by inducing in him feelings of guilt and confusion. Despite all this Job endures and perseveres in his faith in God. He loves God totally even through the most deafening, maddening silence. And finally, God does talk to him and blesses Job because of his CHOICE OF FAITH.

I can look at Romans 8:30 ( the most quoted passage in favour of predestination) in the context of special intercessory cases where God does intervene directly to fulfil his own special purposes...Paul was no exception. This was especially true of OT times. Example of Moses is a classic one. God hardened pharoah's heart ( for the time being) to fulfil His very special purpose. NOTE :Though Pharoah ALREADY stood in rejection of God and God just gave him a mood swing, so to speak.

BUT what is interesting how God does not do this magical change of heart miracle with Moses. God has to convince Moses through so many arguements. Moses pleads, reasons and objects. But eventally Moses does show FAITH in God and the deal is done.

FAITH itself is a product of FREE WILL. Many People choose to be Hindus, Budhists, Muslims, Satanists, Atheists, Wiccans, Pagans, New Agers etc. Many of them read Bible but CHOOSE to reject because of their own selfish reasons: ''Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.'' Matthew 7:13

Though Israelites were so much loved by God and they were the CHOSEN and THE ELECT yet they were stiff necked people who rejected God again and again for idols,debauchery and other greeds, whims... from the times in the desert to the times of Jesus.

But when we show FAITH in God, we open our heart. And only then God opens it further and strengthens our faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is a good study in the importance of faith. In the gospels Christ rewards people for their faith.

Yet, we are a total contradiction. Suspended somewhere between good and evil and using our free- will we can choose Jesus, the eternal life and fellowship with God. AND NO SIN is unforgivable before GOD!!! ''Father judges no one but has given all judgement to the Son.'' John 5:22. And the Son is so forgiving.

Peter denied Christ 3 times at a critical juncture (Jesus knew it already) but Jesus knew Peter had so much faith in Him. Earlier, When Jesus had asked the apostles if they wanted to leave him too, Peter interjected saying where else they could go? Peter had faith that it was Jesus who had the words of eternal life.

Despite our failings God remembers our faith. Even Paul was in deep sorrow because of his ''thorn''. Nobody knows for sure what this ''thorn'' was. It could be some diesease or very possibly some of Paul's weakness or sin. BUT Men CANT BE SIN- FREE (To answer Q# 10) That's why ONLY the blood of Christ and God's grace (grace as opposed to mercy because grace can cover us when we doubt) can save us if we choose to believe. If we choose to accept that we are sinners and we need God's help. We can do good deeds with God's grace but we can't be all good or sin-free. Here is God's promise for EVERYONE (But surely many continue to reject it):

''ASK, and it will be given to you; SEEK, and you will find; KNOCK and it will be opened to you.'' Mathew 7:7

''You do not have because you do not ASK'' James 4:2

In fact we must pray with full ocnfidence in God or else our prayers (vain babblings) may end up bouncing off the walls.

AT LAST. It is only Free- Will that completely justifies hell. When we continue to reject God we break God's heart (See Hosea) It is tragic. Also, When we reject God willfully we truly deserve hell. It is by faith, repentence, mercy and grace that we are saved which is NOT POSSIBLE without you making a CHOICE.

[shane]

"Jesus was sent because all laws could never be kept. We were too depraved." If we CAN'T keep the law, i.e. CHOOSE WITH FREE WILL to do so, then it ain't free. CAN'T precludes freedom.

"I shall lose none of those the Father has given Me." negates any argument one may have about losing salvation. You should notice that I'm not saying man doesn't choose, only that he doesn't do so freely.

Don't just argue with me, examine it.

Man's will is not free, otherwise he'd be capable of not sinning.

[Emberglow]

Well, you are welcome to have your opinion. I DID NOT mean TOTAL DEPRAVITY of man that Calvinism teaches. Man is not totally depraved. There is good left in man. And ability to reason, think, make a decision. If human beings are so totally depraved then HOW come Calvinists expect that their theory is sound and believable. After all it must have come from a depraved mind ?

Well, as I believe in Individual soul liberty, so we shall leave it here. If a certain creed makes you a better Christian and a person, it's well and good.

[shane]

Whoa, nobody's talking about being a better Christian/person. The goal here is to know and discern truth. And whether you believe in total depravity, or merely some level of depravity, such a statement is a tacit admission that you're not free.

Now, ability to choose among various things is different than complete freedom. The idea is this: man's will is confined to his nature. Pre-saved you have a sin nature, so you sin. Eph. 2:1-3. After you're saved, you do good stuff, you act Christ like, because that's who you are. Eph. 2:8-11.

[Emberglow]

LOL. Heaven and Earth shall pass away but these debates shall not pass away. I better take it to email.

We know so many infant baptisms, and even born agains (i.e. people who were baptised as adults by their own choice) who again CHOOSE to do bad and evil and are back to dapravity. They lose salvation because even after being born-again they persistently Will to do evil, CHOOSING to ignore the good counsel of the Holy Spirit. THE ELECT doctrine ALSO Creates the problem of discerning who is elected and who is not? I remember reading about a church that refused to put a church sign outside the building and worshipped in secret. They were scared some Non Elect may come and join the congregation!

Catholics say THEY ARE THE ELECT, Mormons say they are, Jehovah's Witnesses say They Are the elect. WHO IS ? Whosoever comes to the Son. It is a two way communication. NOT ONE WAY.

OFCOURSE Free Will is NOT unlimited but it DOES EXIST. We cannot Will to be saved by New Agers (because it is NOT God's Will) But we can use Will to choose either life or Death.

I realize by now, we both are talking more or less the same thing but see it from different angles and through different tags. We both cited verses and instances from Bible and tried to cite them justly. I hate to admit, but relativism does exist, in the human mind.

But at least we got the basics right and got the same book.Different translations or versions maybe. No pun intended.

[Emberglow]

LOL. Heaven and Earth shall pass away but these debates shall not pass away. I better take it to email.

We know so many infant baptisms, and even born agains (i.e. people who were baptised as adults by their own choice) who again CHOOSE to do bad and evil and are back to dapravity. They lose salvation because even after being born-again they persistently Will to do evil, CHOOSING to ignore the good counsel of the Holy Spirit. THE ELECT doctrine ALSO Creates the problem of discerning who is elected and who is not? I remember reading about a church that refused to put a church sign outside the building and worshipped in secret. They were scared some Non Elect may come and join the congregation!

Catholics say THEY ARE THE ELECT, Mormons say they are, Jehovah's Witnesses say They Are the elect. WHO IS ? Whosoever comes to the Son. It is a two way communication. NOT ONE WAY.

OFCOURSE Free Will is NOT unlimited but it DOES EXIST. We cannot Will to be saved by New Agers (because it is NOT God's Will) But we can use Will to choose either life or Death.

I realize by now, we both are talking more or less the same thing but see it from different angles and through different tags. We both cited verses and instances from Bible and tried to cite them justly. I hate to admit, but relativism does exist, in the human mind.

But at least we got the basics right and got the same book.Different translations or versions maybe. No pun intended.

[Emberglow]

I dont know how it got posted twice. Let's say God affirmed echoed it. lol

[shane]

i see what you're saying ember, but you can't deny that there is an ELECT, mainly because there's this book, the Bible, inspired by this person, the Holy Spirit, and He chose to use that term. Arguments abound as to whom God chose and upon what basis He did the choosing, but that He chose some and not others is undeniable: "vessels of wrath destined for destruction," you know.

I admire your effort, but hear me out on this.

The apostle Paul viewed salvation as eternal, and unloseable. Otherwise, words like "predestine" would be rendered absolutely meaningless. Furthermore, what would the cross mean:

1. Did Christ pay for the sin of the saved on the cross?

2. If the saved can lose their salvation, then would that not be a floating payment?

3. If Christ will "lose none" of whom the Father has given Him, and if the saved are those whom the Father has given Him, then the saved, by definition, cannot be lost again.

4. If Christ makes everlasting intercession for us (Hebrews), then is "everlasting" only a term meaning "so long as we permit him, until we lose our salvation"?

5. If Christ is a shephard, and we're His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He layed His life down for the sheep, then Christ must be a poor shepherd, indeed, if He's losing sheep. Predestination kaka aside, any theology in which Christ loses His bride to Satan renders His blood ineffectual, and diminishes Him as a mere ratifier of man's will, and not as a Savior.