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What God commands and does through his servant Joshua in Joshua chapter 11, and what God reveals through Jesus in Luke 17 may seem completely contradictory to one another.

On a superficial level, not willing to study and seek the deeper heart of one God who deeply loves mankind, Joshua 11 and Luke 17 could be seen as contradicting one another.

After all, merely from the view of the limited human mind, God's wrath can seem to contradict God's love. And theologians have wrestled how to put the two together.

Yet...I do not believe it has to be that hard as long as we let Scripture interpret Scripture.

We must let God interpret Himself, and we must let Jesus speak for Himself-- and then listen. We must suspend so-called "superior 21st century understanding" and really listen.

Look at the "apparent contradictions" here. Of course, I do not believe in contradictions in Scripture... just the opportunity to study and pray and learn more about God.

Joshua 11 (NKJV)
9
So Joshua did to them as the LORD had told him: he hamstrung their horses and burned their chariots with fire.
11
And they struck all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them. There was none left breathing. Then he burned Hazor with fire.
12
So all the cities of those kings, and all their kings, Joshua took and struck with the edge of the sword. He utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded.
15
As the LORD had commanded Moses his servant, so Moses commanded Joshua, and so Joshua did. He left nothing undone of all that the LORD had commanded Moses.

Luke 17 (NKJV)
11
Now it happened as He went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12
Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13
And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
14
So when He saw them, He said to them, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.

DOES THE GENTLE, HEALING, LOVING JESUS CONTRADICT THE "SO CALLED ANGRY GOD OF THE OT"?

Read further in Luke 17, and you will see there is more agreement than noticed at first glance.

Luke 17 (NKJV)
21
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
26
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27
They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

29
but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30
Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

32
Remember Lot’s wife.
33
Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

37
...He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

NOTE:
Note verse 20 of Luke 17: Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

JUDGMENT WILL COME BY JESUS HIMSELF WHEN HE COMES THE SECOND TIME. This age of wonderful grace and mercy DOES NOT NEGATE THAT FACT.

What is the challenge of Jesus to me and you, and to all generations?
==>
BE TOTALLY COMMITTED TO GOD'S WILL AND TRUTH, AND TO THE LORD JESUS.
==>
DO NOT DWELL ON THE PAST.

Jesus' command in Luke 17 is very short and somber, meant to provoke thought:
32
Remember Lot’s wife.

~~~

WHAT IS THE MESSAGE? In every age, God is wonderfully merciful, and has ALWAYS been so. Yet... if people persistently and consistently harden their hearts over many centuries, time will run out.

Certainly, when each one dies, then time runs out for that one.

~~~

Thus, God's command to Joshua now begins to take on a different interpretation: God is not "the big bully just waiting and eager to crush you and I."

NO... God is very patient and longsuffering, and merciful. He will always give anyone a chance to change and receive love instead of judgment.

YET... there must be judgment of sin or else evil could not deserve to be called evil and goodness could not be good.

There must be a separation between the two. There must be judgment of wrongdoing, and there must be rewarding of right.

Keep in mind God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 15 (NKJV):
15
Now as for you [Abram], you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.
16
But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.

DID YOU CATCH THAT? God will wait FOUR GENERATIONS until judgment comes.

That gives PLENTY of chances for a people group, a nation, a family, and an individual to repent and receive mercy.

~~~
THINK ABOUT THIS: How many people repented and received mercy, and then physically moved away from the sin and iniquity of the Amorites?

We do not see that part. Yet, because God is not willing that any should perish, I am certain that God was always calling people to repent and receive mercy... and that there must have been some, or even one, who responded.

Vance


Is it okay to lie? The answer, for those who believe the Bible, must reply, "Yes, in limited circumstances." Here are two examples: 1) the women who lied about having Moses; 2) Rahab who lied to save the lives of the spies. There can be no doubt but that those were both sanctioned by God.

The distinction is the same as between murder and killing. Murder is always wrong, but not all killing is murder. Otherwise, Joshua would be in some serious trouble!

All that to say that I think a very strong argument could be made for biblical lying for military reasons (Rahab), and for the purpose of saving life (Moses).

Interesting bit to reflect on. Lying for good or the purposes of God. Notably, Joshua also sent some men to spy out the land before invading Jericho. Of course spying itself has ulterior motives and is designed to deceive one party.

Now let's compare it to God's Ten Commandments. In many Bible commentaries and maybe also some bible translations one of the commandments simply reads, ''Do not lie.'' But if we look up in the Bible (Exodus chapter 20) after, ''You shall not steal''(no exceptions) is ''You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.''

I think it is clear that the malicious lies, like the lies of Satan are the ones Bible commands us to stay away from. It is ok to conceal information for noble purposes or save human life. There is a clear distinction.

"Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle."....I couldn't keep thinking of the humility of these people....All the other nations must have heard about Israel(Rahab confirms that)but they thought they could save themselves with their own power...they lost..it also says that God hardened their hearts...well since God is no respecter of persons I think(may be wrong and I welcome any corrections)God saw the conceit in their hearts and fore knew they'd never submit to Him.The Hivites lied,deceived...yep...but they came to ask for mercy...they maybe thought they were not worthy to stand before the Israelites so they acted up a bit..In the end when they were attacked Israel fought for them too...
I kinda thought...like us we need to humble ourselves before God,see ourselves as not worthy...and He will fight for us too.I don't see God admonishing Joshua for not asking Him before signing a peace treaty...not do I see God being so mad at the Hivites for lying either...He knows we are human and sinful...He asks us to come just as we are and accept His sovereighty..He'll adopt us..and clean us up...
God bless you all

Mike you asked, >>This Proverb says those who are godly hate lies. I am sure we all do hate lying. But is it ever okay to lie?>>

The answer for me is, No!! Do I lie? Yes. Do I feel bad when I do it? Yes, you bet’cha The saying, “Honesty is The Best Policy,” is not correct, it is “Honesty is the Only Policy.” For me the problem of lying is this, “If I can’t believe the words that come out of my mouth, I will not believe anything that comes out of anyone else’s’ mouth. If I have a problem with my own words, their truth, I will have a problem receiving the Words of God. Not only will I begin discounting what others have said, I will discount God’s Words. If I require others and God to stand by their Words and I don’t, then I am a hypocrite, demanding from others, including God, what I am unwilling to do myself.

The second part of your question, >>To save an innocent life - is it okay?>> For this answer I will go to the Word of God (But if you operate with a policy that it is O.K. to lie, then God’s Word is up for negotiation and it will be discounted when it makes you feel uncomfortable),

Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives. (Romans 3:23 AMP)

Since the word “all” means none are excluded, then NO ONE, nobody, is innocent in God’s eyes, though we may be innocent in man’s eyes. Yet no man or woman has a heaven or hell to put me in so I have to go with what the Word of God states. Reading the Bible not only takes discernment but it also takes understanding of who is speaking. If I go into the Public Records and begin reading transcripts of trials, what I read is the truth of what was said in that trial; however, if someone has committed perjury by the words they speak, then what I read of that person’s testimony will be truly stated but it will not be the truth.

I am told by Paul to do this,
PATTERN YOURSELVES after me [follow my example], as I imitate and follow Christ (the Messiah). (1 Corinthians 11:1 AMP), so my model is Christ because no one else died for me or could die for me who is able to deliver me from the Judgment but Him.

Re 'is it ever right to lie' I agree with shane that there seems to be room within God's 'value system' for lying to save a life. Witness Hebrews 11:31 the chapter on heroes of the faith, and Rahab was given honourable mention alongsidE Moses and a bunch of other heavy weights. As Francis Schaeffer once said, "God blessed her faith if not her morality." Or how about the hebrew midwives in Exodus 1:11-19 who chose to obey God rather than a fanatical, manaical ruler. I guess in some very limited circumstances it's not just okay to lie, it's the wisest and most loving thing to do. Last thought, what about Brother Lawrence who has smuggled Bibles in past years into what were once closed countries, or the survivors of The Hiding Place during world war 2 where Corrie Ten Boom and her family hid Jews from the Nazis?? Just a few heavy thoughts to ponder on a very delicate subject.

One more thought I was encouraged by today in Psalm 84:5-7 "Happy are those who are strong in the LORD who set their minds on a pilgrimmage to Jerusalem. When they walk through the Valley of Weeping (otherwise called "baca" it will become a place of refreshing springs, where pools of blessing collect after the rains! They continue to grow stronger, and each of them will appear before God..." I have seen this to be true of my wife, Rosetta, who has been battling breast cancer since October. She has completed five rounds of chemo treatment, with 3 to go. She and I have been going through our own Valley of Weeping, but we, especially is coming through it with greater 'inner person' strength than ever. "The outer man is perishing but the inner man is being renewed day by day." REading the Word of God daily sure does help the inner man be renewed as the outer suffers with hair loss, as well as other physical manifestations. The other night on Holy Thursday, Rosetta led our life group of 12 through the most beautiful Passover, communion meal. She is growing stronger through this. Her favourite verse these days has been Job 1:10 where Job exhorts his wife and says, "You are talking...foolish. Shall we accept good from God and not trouble?" I think this in part is what it means to grow stronger as we all go through our own valleys that may be life threatening.

Our hope is solidly anchored to our Risen Jesus!!!

On Mike's question about lying: Is it wrong to lie?

God gave us laws to follow, that's true. Although it's not about lying, Jesus himself negated the law to cure the sick on a Sabbath which shows that life is more important than the law.

Kohlberg, a famous pychologist, did a research about a moral dilemma story involving children, adolescents, and adults. The moral dilemma concerns stealing vs. saving a life. In this instance Heinz (this was obviously a fictitious story) was desperately trying to save his wife who was dying of cancer, ended up stealing the drug that he couldn't afford to pay for because the pharmacist would not budge to bring down the price of the drug. The question that was asked which is a very similar quetion that Mike asked: is it wrong to steal the drug to save Heinz's wife? To make the story short, adult thinking individuals who have reached the highest level of morality or the so-called post-conventional level said that it is okay to steal to save the life of Heinz' wife.

To me, this is no different from the behavior of Christ when he had to cure the sick (save life) despite negating the law (keeping the Sabbath holy). Christ obviously typifies the highest level of morality which
is ---LIFE IS PARAMOUNT and is above any law. Which to me is no different from the commandments being summed up with the word LOVE!!!

Lying to save life is different from compulsive lying or what some people call "congenital lying".


Re God'd kingdom being in our hearts. True, until we find Him first in our hearts we will never find him anywhere...

Proverbs - Proverbs chapter 13 verse 5 - "Those who are godly hate lies; the wicked come to shame and disgrace."

"I am sure we all do hate lying." I do so wish this statement were true. I'm not sure many people in the "world" even know the desruction of lying...they take the "truth" so lightly. The "world" is a lie (prince of the world is satan, the father of lies).

Even we as Christians/Believers believe the "lie" in our own lives or we whould not act/behave the way we do. When we manifest actions contrary to Christ, we are believing the "lie" instead of the "truth!" It is hard to see it this way, but it is the "truth" instead of the lie.

If you read "Be Transformed" you will come to understand living the "truth" instead of the "lie"...knowing just who we are in Christ, which is the Way, the Truth & the Life. Lies are death & Truth is Life...HE IS THE TRUTH & satan is the lie. It will always be black & white...no gray areas. Yes, Rahab lied...it doesn't mean it was not wrong, but that the outcome was right...does that make sense to you/all of us?!?!?! I'm not sure it makes sense to me, but it is the "truth!" I hate lying & I don't lie 90% of the time, but I have lied & probably will in the future, which is sin. To do something wrong & know it, is sin to us all (or at least that is what the Word of God says in the Bible).

I could never figure out why even as a child I hated lying...but over the years I have got revelation & still getting revelation as to why I hate/hated lying so much. My Father is the Father of Truth & that is why I desire & yearn for the Truth in all things...even as a child. I was saved & baptized at 9 years old...sealed with the Holy Spirit at that moment & it took me until 1976 to start that personal relationship with HIM; although HE protected me all the years in between because I did make a decision & I was sealed with the Holy Spirit, just without knowledge/disciplship/truth or vision...yet HE preserved & protected me because of that one decision that I made. I continue to grow in HIM, because I desire & yearn for HIS truth, even though I manifested living lies instead of His truth in my life...not knowing who I was in Christ. I know now more than ever just who I am in Christ & there is no offense in living this way...fiery darts just go right over my head & I walk in a freedom to love that I have never known before...ever growing in the love walk by yearning for His Truth & living the Truth instead of the lie.

jano

BTW: Transformation comes in reading His Word/the Bible & our minds being renewed to His Truth, the Ultimate Truth of Eternity. We will never know who we are in Christ till we know Him/His Word...this will just not happen. We will also perish without His Truth/Knowledge/Vision & we must have the Holy Spirit to gives us daily revelation of His Word...because His Word is alive & living in us when we read it...it is poweful to heal us in all ways; soul, mind & body...our Spirits/His Spirit within us is already perfect as He is...it is just getting our souls, minds & bodies to line up with our spirits (which is He living within us...the Kingdom of God is within us)...that sets the plumbline for the soul, mind & body to follow.

A little preachy this morning...imagine that?!?! :)

jano

Joshua 11:1-12:24


As I read through today’s Old Testament reading I was reminded me of the Word’s of Jesus, And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matthew 5:29-30 KJV)

What we are reading is a physical example of a spiritual discipline. Israel wasn’t getting this land because she was so good and wonderful, she was getting this land because of a Promise God made to Abraham and because the inhabitants were so wicked that the land was “vomiting” them out. As the saying goes, “If you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas,” and this was a BIG dog with alotta fleas.

Since we are in the season of Passover, one of the things that is done in an observant household is to sweep out all of the yeast from the house. In this instance, yeast represents sin. Israel was sweeping out the yeast from the land as ordered by God.


Mike you asked a question regarding today’s Psalm 84 reading,
>> What does one day in God’s courts look like for you? Why would one day in God’s courts be better than one thousand days elsewhere?>>

To place my response in context, let me say this: We humans have a habit of placing our characteristics: fears and desires onto God when it should be the other way around. We need to learn how to see life from God’s perspective, His point of view and not place our point of view upon God. Having said that I will state, One day in God’s courts is an eternity. God is not encased or constrained by time, He is eternal and exists in eternity, thus there are no 24/7s. Jesus stepped into time to become our deliverance from the ravishes of time. Thus, a thousand days anywhere else is nothing in God’s economy of scale.

Grace and peace,
Ramona

I can relate many things in my life to how the Israelites were when they feared the descendants of Anak, then 40 years later they defeated them. My wife and I have a new baby and for years I didn't want kids because I feared parenting would be my downfall (pretty siily, I know). But now, three weeks into fatherhood, I find I'm approaching it with 'faith and confidence'. It's a lot of work but God provides the strength as needed... moment by moment. I try to always remember that God knows every challenge I will face. He knows it better than I ever will and he will provide my strength. I just need to have faith that what happens is the will of God. Maybe it seems simplistic, but the simpler the better for me.
Mind you, I have failed and fallen far more times than I can count, but by the grace of God do I keep going.
Take care,
Jim

Glad to see some brand new friends sharing their insights.

Proverbs 13:5

The first three verses have to do with contrasting hearing and speaking, the fourth contrasts the soul. Verses 5 and 6 have to do with the character of the righteous and the effect of righteousness.

Keil & Delitzsch translate verse 5:

"A deceitful thing the righteous hateth;
But the godless disgraceth and putteth to shame."

Hebrew word for lying, deceitful is "sheqer".

Sheqer means 'not only the word in which the soul (verse 4) reveals itself, but the inner principles or essence (of one) which comes forth to be viewed.' "The righteous hateth all that bears in it the character of a falsehood." - Keil & Delitzsch

The second part is not explicit, but to be consistent in the idea of contrasts. 'The godless LOVE disgracing and putting to shame.'

[Back to "hating lying"]
As imputed righteous but still being sinners - we should hate that character of deceit in ourselves as much as in others (when evidenced).

So as much as the focus has been on individual lies, I believe the point of emphasis is on hating the inner nature that nurtures and allows these lies (acts of deceit) to come out. That goes to the character of a righteous "man".

Is it O.K. to lie? No. When those lies occurred that poster(s) referenced; they were wrong. But God uses all things to his glory and greater purpose - even wrongful acts.

Interesting

or perhaps not.

Luje 17:34-35

Given Jesus had pointed out HOW suddenly his return would be -

And the explicit use of the Hebrew word for "night" -

It could be inerpreted that these passages indicates the "round" nature of the earth.

If one set of persons is separated at night, and yet at the same time somewhere else it is day (people are working), then it is not indicating a "flat" earth but one that is at the least "orb-like".

Just a fun - 'I never thought about it like that' note.

Have a blessed Day.
"He has risen".


Hey John, just out of curiousity, are you sure that the midwives and Rahab were sinning in their lies?

If so, how does that play into spying, or undercover police work, or telling a child about Santa or the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy, etc.?

FYI, this ain't a debate... i wouldn't die on the hill of "I say it's okay to lie when..."

Shane,

See cb's blog for a pretty good answer on your questions.

It's a broken world, people lie, some feel justified in their lying. Others may rationalize it for them. If world was not broken and we did not have the "nature" that "nurtures" lying, it would not be an issue.

I don't remember God explicitly telling individuals - 'Here's what you do - when this happens - you tell them this, etc.' It is how Humans handled a situation. Were there other options?

That is why I tried to make the point about "hating" the character or "nature" that causes us to lie. As that is what I believe that - at least - these proverbs passages are getting at in the readings.

Shane, I have one son that is now 23 years old & his father & I never told him that Santa or the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy were real...we always told him the truth about those characters. We did take him around those characters in the malls or stores & he even had his picture taken with them,but he knew they were not real & that what Easter & Christmas was "really" all about. Matter of fact, I still have his tooth fairy pillow with his baby teeth in it, but he knew there was no such thing as a tooth fairy...he knew that his dad & I were the tooth fairy.

He always went to funerals with us when he was a very small child becuase some of his relatives passed away at his tender age of 2 & on & he never had a problem viewing a dead body, because we always taught him about death & how glorious it was for a Christian/Believer & how awful it was for a nonChristian/Unbeliever. The young man now/my son has never had a problem with death nor viewing a shell of a spirit/a dead body...because he/son/Jeremy was told the truth from the beginning. The TRUTH SHALL/WILL SET US FREE & it does.

jano

ALSO...seems Rahab was living the lie of being a prostitute & was seeking/finding the TRUTH & found it in helping the spies & coming out of the "lie" of prostitution. Perhpas she knew this was her & her families way out...to serve the REAL God & not a lie that kept her in prostitution...just the same as today. A church I used to attend actually had a ministery "Daughters of Grace" that ministered to & helped women get out of the sex industry...to finally start believing the TRUTH instead of the lie about their lives & how to live it.

jano

Thanks Jan and John, you make really good points. Nevertheless, I still see a distinction (I'm not for Easter Bunny lies and the like, but espionage, under cover police work, etc.) between lying and telling untruths in war/police work type situations.
I liken it to killing/murder. "Thou shalt not kill," doesn't preclude war, the death penalty, and killing in self defense. So, if there's an exception for killing people, it stands to reason that there's an exception for some forms of deception.

But, I suppose it's debatable, and like I said, I'm not gonna die on that hill.

Shane, it is a little strange when Moses handed down the Ten Commandments from God & it says, "Thou shalt not kill/murder & then just the killing/destruction of whole nations in Joshua are anilihated...seems contra to God's laws. And I know why God commaned that every thing be destroyed...guess He is the ultimate Commander-In-Chief & hands down the orders to march to what ever He says.

jan

Shane and others

This comment section has gotten lengthy but I can't resist adding a comment.

I have been thinking about undercover agents, spies, police and intelligence agencies that must lie for the greater good. BUT Who is to decide which side is right? Whose lies are bad sorta lies? CIA or KGB, Zionists or Paletinians (I would not mention more controversial ones!) I think in the end it boils down to whose side we are on.

Just another tricky scenario. Let's say if a Christian U.S. soldier saw horrible warcrimes or acts of inhuman, degrading treatment and torture committed by his troops against the other side (military or civilian). Should that soldier consider it his Christian duty to go to media and the world press or he should hide it so the reputation of his country is not maligned or blasted by the enemies at international stage....?

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