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I have a question if you don't mind?

It is about 1 Samuel 28- The part were Saul goes to a Medium to find out what is going to happen the next day and according to the bible he gets the woman to bring Samuel up from the dead to speak to him . Question being are not all Mediums and conjourers all from satan ? If so how did Samuel come to be there and be party to this evil act?

I have looked up many commentaries but they are all contradictory , would like to hear what your impressions of this passage are. Thank you for all your help.

Question being are not all Mediums and conjourers all from satan ? If so how did Samuel come to be there and be party to this evil act?

Question 1: No!
Question 2: Because God wanted to send Saul a message!

I disagree with the first answer to this question.

Saul had no business going to a conjurer/medium/witch. It was strictly prohibited by God. Saul has made many poor choices in his life that are dangerous to follow and this is one of them.

The fact that it seems that the witch seems to have connected with the real Samuel is a surprise even to her. This is not the usual way of things and in fact Samuel doesn't give Saul what he is looking for. He basically tells him it's too late for him--he should have consulted and obeyed the man of God when he had the chance.

Following are the scriptural prohibitions on spiritists that I copied from the bible.org article link that was listed.

First, God has strictly forbidden the use of mediums. A number of Old Testament texts forbid the presence of mediums and other spiritists in the land of Israel and also forbid the Israelites to consult such persons. Consider these prohibitions in the Law of Moses:

“‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God’” (Leviticus 19:31).

“‘As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people’” (Leviticus 20:6).

“‘Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them’” (Leviticus 20:27).

10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 “For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. 13 “You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:10-14).

"David then asked Ahimelech the Hittite and Abishai son of Zeruiah, Joab's brother, "Who will go down into the camp with me to Saul?"
"I'll go with you," said Abishai."

I find this nepotism very interesting:

1. Ahimelech was Hittite.
2. Zeruiah was David's Sister
3. Joab and Abishai were the sons of David's sister, Zeruiah
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As David calls out Saul yet another time, after this time taking Saul's spear and water jug, again we hear Saul acknowledge his wrongdoing. It puts me in mind of Judah when Tamar was about to be stoned, how Judah acknowledged that she was more honorable than Judah because he would not give her his son to wed.

Then I got to thinking about what Jesus said in "Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

David employed this in his first encounter with Saul in the cave (privately), and now he speaks out in front of his men so that all can be party to what is really going on, and it is again remarkable to me how scripture interprets scripture.
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We know that Saul was quite aware of his sin in consulting a medium, because just before this he had expelled all the mediums and spiritists.

The witch of Endor (the medium) was located in the Philistine-held territory, so Saul disguised himself and went "by night" (bear in mind what Jesus said in John 11:9 and 10 today:

"9Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light."

Isn't it ironic that Saul would swear by the very existence of the Lord that this medium was safe from punishment, while he was in blatant disobedience to the very Levitical law that required her to be stoned?

The text clearly indicates that Samuel, not an apparition, was evident to the eyes of the medium. God miraculously permitted the actual spirit of Samuel to speak. Because she understood her inability to raise the dead in this manner, she immediately knew that it must have been by the power of God and that her disguised inquirer must be Saul.

The word translated "spirit" is actually the Hebrew word meaning "God, gods, angel, ruler, or judge." It can also be used to designate a likeness to one of these from the medium's perspective. Samuel appeared to be "like a spirit" ascending out of the earth. There is no other such miracle as this in all of Scripture.

Obviously age and clothing do not exist in the realm of the spirits of those who have died, but God miraculously gave such appearances so that Saul was able to perceive that the spirit was Samuel. The question arises whether all believers will remain in the form they were in when they died. Since Scripture teaches that the resurrection of the saints is yet future (Daniel 12:1,2), Samuel must have been in this condition temporarily for the benefit of Saul alone.
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The reading today is chalk so full of choice morsels. "All this meat and no potatoes." *LOL*
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Now, this Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha: He was resurrected from the dead before Jesus, and the folks in the town on the day of Jesus crucifixion; "Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

What gives? I have a little difficulty with this, not that I believe scripture is wrong, but that my understanding is dull. How is it that we proclaim that Jesus is first to rise from the dead in light of the death of Lazarus, the child Elijah raised up, these folks coming out of the grave?

"Acts:26:23: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1Cor:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Col:1:18: And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Can someone please clarify this for me?

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Alright, now finally we see that Caiaphas actually did prophesy about Jesus death in his plot to have him killed; remarkable how God uses even the bad things about our character to bring about good:

"John 11:49... Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53So from that day on they plotted to take his life."

Bet you thought I was going to use the entire page today, huh? (Oh, I did?)

My views on the medium issue - while I fully concur it is prohibited by God for us to contact the dead, He appears to allow (in certain circumstances) the dead to contact the living. I had an experience after my hubby died where I 'felt' he was talking to me (in my mind just - no visitation), and the ensuing 'conversation' was very spiritual where 'he' continually exhorted me to put Jesus first, and to know that we would indeed soon be joined together in God (he was a Christian too). I actually 'prayed against' Satan twice in the early part of this encounter as I really was so unsure of its source, but Stephen insisted it was him, and said he understood why I had to do that. The more interesting point of this 'encounter' was that Stephen told me he was only being given one opportunity to talk to me, and I was under no circumstances to 'seek him out' i.e, through mediums (not that I ever would have anyway). Finally I wrote down the entire conversation 8 hours later and know it was accurate (incredible for me who forgets what I did or said 2 hours ago!), and gave it to a solid fundamentalist minister to assess his opinion of the whole thing. He considered it to be okay because 1) I hadn't sought the encounter in any way and 2) the contents of it were very 'Jesus oriented' - and continually exhorted me to put Jesus first etc, along with some other confirmations.

So, while 8 years on, I now look back at that and start to have some doubts about it, I would still hold that God can allow the dead to contact the living in certain cases and maybe in various ways, although part of me would still be very wary about it.

What I marvel at in some respects regarding Saul's case, is that having just been given a definite prophecy by Samuel about what's going to happen the next day and how - Saul doesn't consider changing his plans in any way - was he unable to do so for some divine reason, or is it just another testimony to the fact that we cannot change our future no matter how much we might like to - if we're going to die tomorrow, it will happen no matter what we decide to do, and/or even if we know about it in advance. It's also interesting too from the other angle of current day affairs - those who go to mediums etc now, would very much change their routine or lifestyle if told to do so or given 'knowledge' of some future event possibly happening. At the very least, they would end up living their lives totally stressed out worrying - precisely why God has never granted us the ability to know what lies ahead. Makes for a much less stressful life. Just think how tough it can be if you know you've got a tough meeting with your boss in 2 days time, or you're going to get test results tomorrow etc - way much worse if you knew something really bad or tough to deal with was going to happen up ahead.
Then looking at the NT story of Lazarus - listening to it once more, just made me think about something I was vehemently against not so long ago, but now am going to go and re-research - soul sleep! I'd always gone with the 'camp' that states - "absent from the body, present with the Lord", which asserts that you are fully awake, aware and corpus mentus at the instant of death and thereafter, which I do feel seems right. But then, listening to Jesus saying that Lazarus has only fallen asleep, makes me wonder. Seems a bit strange to consider that Lazarus might have died, actually gone to heaven only to be told that he's not going to stay there, but has to return to his body for Jesus to have His glory shown to the waiting crowd. Yet, I equally wonder was Lazarus a purely special case in respect of death and resurrection and/or was the possible concept of 'soul sleep' only a reality BEFORE the resurrection of Jesus??

Anyone want to comment on these concepts? Love to hear alternate views or links to other sites which might prove useful for continuing my research into the last one. Thanks.

Mediums...I thought when Samuel died he went to heaven..so that meant he was with God.God had taken a stand on mediums...seeking out mediums was never his will.It would suprise me that God would make an exception for Saul by letting the spirit of Samuel be summoned by a worker of satan thereby assisting in the breaking of a law He had made.Did Saul after all he did go to heaven?I've really not seen Saul have a relationship with God at all(except when he needed something).The Samuel the medium brought up said Saul and his sons would be together with him....Well,did Samuel have the right to judge who was going where after death?But the most disturbing question to me is...would God use satan's agents (after refusing to speak to Saul)to communicate...If God said no mediums then let Samuel go "prophesy"...isn't that breaking his own law....
I haven't had the time to read Bob's commentaries but this is one time I'll say "God if this is true,show me yourself cos it just doesn't sound like it's you".
God bless you all

I have to admit the statement Jesus made"this sickness is not unto death"is kind of puzzling because Lazarus did die because of the sickness....and as Romayne pointed out...the issue of the soul sleeping..that's a pretty hard piece of meat to chew.
At the same time...to the unbelieving Jews...the saw the blind man healed,now Lazarus....truly they had no excuse not to believe.It brings us to the question of those who believed...what was so different about them.Jesus said that nobody can come to Him unless the father draws him near...must say I'm having a hard time with this bit....would really love get other insights.
God bless you all

1 Samuel 26:1-28:25

Two men, on the outside they don’t seem to be different; however, on the inside one has a heart after God, the other’ heart is focused on himself and covered in pride. Both of these men have sin in their lives, both of these men have “missed” it; yet one repents and turns back to God the other doesn’t. One is at war with God the other is at peace. If one were to look at the entire life of both of these men, I think Saul would come up smelling like a rose, while David would be severely condemned. However, the difference can be found in the heart. David wanted to please God Saul wanted to fight Him. Saul fought to keep his name in the limelight by any means necessary; David lifted up God’s name.

Death, necromancers (the witch at Endor), familiar spirits and mediums.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and go back and read Jesus’ reply to the Sadducees (Sad-to-sees) who gave Jesus that crazy scenario about the woman who married and outlived seven brothers (Matthew 22:23-29; Mark 12:18-27; Luke 20:27-40). The bottom line is this, those that die a physical death, in Christ even before Christ physically came upon the earth (Samuel et all) are not dead in God’s sight.

But Jesus replied to them, You are wrong because you know neither the Scriptures nor God's power. For in the resurrected state neither do [men] marry nor are [women] given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven. But as to the resurrection of the dead--have you never read what was said to you by God, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living! [Exod. 3:6.] (Matthew 22:29-32 AMP)

As far as man is concerned now, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are long dead but Jesus reminds us that God spoke of them as being in the hear and now. God said I am the God of … Not I was the God …. We, I believe, in my humble opinion have the wrong understanding of what death is. Cessation of life is not death; being removed from the presence of God is death. We are made in the image of God and God is Spirit not flesh. Who we are, is not who and what we are in “flesh” but in spirit. Our spirits our born again, not our flesh. Our flesh will be redeemed and put back together again in a form that will be incorruptible, like Jesus’, when Jesus comes again.

The witch/medium of Endor had no plans or inclination of bring up Samuel that is why she screamed. She wasn’t expecting the real Samuel. Remember Jesus’ story of Lazarus and the rich man? (Luke 16:19-31). Each of them recognized each other, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man AFTER DEATH but they were not dead; however, the Rich Man had a location problem, he was in the wrong location removed from the Presence of God. .

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna). (Matthew 10:28 AMP)

When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the Word of God and for the testimony they had borne. They cried in a loud voice, O [Sovereign] Lord, holy and true, how long now before You will sit in judgment and avenge our blood upon those who dwell on the earth? [Gen. 4:10; Ps. 79:5; Zech. 1:12.] Then they were each given a long and flowing and festive white robe and told to rest and wait patiently a little while longer, until the number should be complete of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Revelation 6:9-11 AMP)

Also something to think about, if death, physical death is so atrocious for the believer, why would Samuel be upset to be called back into the land of the physical living. He said that they had disturbed him.

This is not what I had initially decided to focus on, but reading the posts led me down this path.

Grace and peace,

P.S. Someone, I’m sorry I can’t remember who, asked about Jesus being the first raised from the dead when others, like Lazarus in the John reading had been brought back to life. Well again, we need to be clear on what “death” Jesus is talking about. Yes, Jesus brought back people from the dead, and by the way so did the prophets Elijah and Elisha; however, all those folks died a physical death, again. Jesus was the only one who came back to physical life but will NEVER die a physical death again. Those who are His will also be clothed with a body that will be eternal and incorruptible when He returns.

Back to the mediums - Anka, I tend to think that while mediums are indeed most likely deluded by, at the very least, and totally sold over to at worst, Satan, God has only said to us that we are not to contact the dead, NOT that it's not possible though - if anything this episode with Samuel to me shows it is indeed possible, and that quite likely those on the 'other side' know more about the future perhaps and if we could indeed contact them we would know more than we should again. However, I do believe that for the most part mediums do only contact demonic spirits masquerading as dead loved ones, hence those who use them in some sense are paying for their sin twice - they're going to be deluded firstly, and judged by God secondly. But like you, I do wonder why God allowed it - or indeed why bother doing it through a medium - if He wanted Samuel to appear to Saul, I would have imagined He could just have done it Himself rather than having Saul commit the additional sin of seeking out the medium. As you say - just throws up yet more questions.

Same with your second query - sounds a bit like the Calvinistic concept of predestination - that only those God elects can actually ever come to Him (which I disagree with) and if you're elected you couldn't decide not to submit and accept Jesus. I think it's more a case that the person is already considering their options, which allows the Holy Spirit room to move in their lives and reveal the Truth to them which they then have the choice to accept or reject. Others may disagree, but before anyone shouts at me for being in the opposite camp (Armenian) I'm not - although Methodist, I disagree with its beliefs too - I'm what I fondly call a Calvinistic Armeniast (apologies for sp). Basically I would believe in a middle viewpoint.

Anyway - hopefully some others might be online soon to discuss and debate these questions further. Appreciate your input tho Anka.

Oops! I forgot about the witches; familiar spirits and mediums.

Each of these things deal with death, something that well, scares us to death. We don’t know what is on the other side; however, God has told us what He has prepared for us but He left no solid proof. That is why we operate by faith. Witches, familiar spirits and mediums allege to tell us what God won’t. This is the same thing that happened in the Garden, “Did God say …?” We are enticed into this realm of demonic activity because deep down inside we believe God is keeping us in the dark, He’s pulling a fast one. It’s not demonic because it’s spooky and eerie; it is demonic because it is in the realm of Satan. I think I stated this before, There are only two Kingdoms; The Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Satan. Everything in the Kingdom of Satan is demonic. In the Kingdom of God, Jesus is Lord; In the kingdom of Satan, Satan isn’t Lord—self is Lord.

Here is something to think about, what is a medium. It is someone who alleges to stand between the living and the dead. The problem is that anyone who operates in these modes are DEAD, spiritually dead. If Believers, God’s folk—His people, go to one of these to find out “stuff,” they are talking to dead folk (spiritually dead) about well dead folk (physically dead and possibly spiritually dead also). There is someone who stands between the living and the dead and it ain’t no medium it is Jesus Christ.

Familiar spirits are those demonic spirits that have hung around your family, region, country through the ages and know everything about you. That’s why they are familiar and you are comfortable with them being around. If someone or something gives you a “word” you best know how that “word” lines up with the Word. We are suppose to walk by faith not by our senses, feelings and emotions.

Witches are just necromancers; folks hanging around dead stuff and dead folk. Why if Jesus is the Truth and the Life, why would we want to rub shoulders and elbows with death when we have Life?

And when the people [instead of putting their trust in God] shall say to you, Consult for direction mediums and wizards who chirp and mutter, should not a people seek and consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? (Isaiah 8:19 AMP)

What we are really concerned about our loved ones who we may or may not see in heaven, bottom line. But guess what, when you get to heaven, if those folks are saved you will see them; if not, you won’t remember. There will be no tears shed in heaven.

Saul at Endor

"Question being are not all Mediums and conjourers all from satan ?"

I am not sure what "all from satan" means? A medium that CAN contact the spirit world would work through "familiar spirits". These are demons (fallen angels) who have been around since Satan's fall. They are not dummies and have extensive knowledge of the subjects that are targeted for contact. "Familiar Spirits" can give detailed information from the deceased person's life and the interactions with the person desiring contact. Hence the term "familiar". They can imitate the voice and materialize looking like that person.

That being said - I think most mediums can be classified as non-believers in Christ. They are used by Satan and his minions to influence people's thoughts about the afterlife. The mediums (especially today) think they have this great gift and are using it for good. They think they have it all figured out, but today's mediums (and maybe the OT ones) are just pawns in Satan's game plan - to make people think they get it right (about the afterlife) - reincarnation, everyone in a happy place, spirit staying on earth, etc.- as long as they never go to Christ. NOTE: You will never see a clairvoyant or medium today who claims to contact the dead make comments endorsing the gospel or Jesus. Anything but that! that is enough to raise a red flag for me.

So, I do not think it is right to say they are "all from Satan" as much as they are being used and manipulated by Satan and his minions.

As Micah and Sue said - contacting the spirit world is a no-no. Micah's citings are absolutely correct. Today there is only one spirit we are to be contacting, and that is God - through the only intercessor and mediator the Bible acknowledges - Jesus Christ.

I base the above on comments by Erwin Lutzer, John Macarthur, and David Jeremiah, and a little reading on the subject.

I believe that people see aliens, have recordings of spirit voices (EVP), that contact with the spirit world is possible and has happened, and that apparations have appeared on earth - I just believe it is all done by "familiar spirits" (demons) who try to twist and turn what goes on in the Universe and after death to spin the story away from God and Jesus.

Saul at Endor II

As "anonymous" said, there is conflicting opinions in commentarieas on what went on here. I acknowledge that, and would like to just point out some things I noticed.

1)vs 12. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice..."

The woman (medium) is either a charlatan or for real.
- if a charlatan than she must have been shocked at what she saw regarding Samuel. She was probably going to try and play (con)Saul regarding Samuel and information Saul wanted.
- if for "real" then something bothered her a great deal. Perhaps the normal contact with a "familiar spirit" did not play out as usual, and Samuel's appearance was a great deviation from the norm.

I base this on the Hebrew word "za`aq" translated "she cried". This verb is in the Hebrew Qal Imperfect and is translated"
a) to call (to one's aid)
b) to cry, cry out (in need)

In a loud voice she called or cried out "in need" or "for aid". Why would this woman if experianced need "aid" or be "in need". I would propose that something radically different from the norm is going on in her job of contacting "spirit".

2) "the woman saw Samuel...Then Saul knew it was Samuel...Samuel said to Saul" excerpts from NIV.

"Saw", "knew", "said" all Hebrew Qal tense and all mean what we think they would mean in English.

Jesus just said in John that:

(Part of John 10:35)
"-and the Scripture cannot be broken-"

So I conclude it is Samuel. In addition, a "familiar spirit" COULD recount all the past info Samuel did to Saul. However familiar spirits have no power to know the future. So, by Samuel fortelling the future (accurately) is further proof to me that it is Samuel speaking to Saul.

So the BIG Question is WHY? Why did God allow Samuel to arise from Sheol/Hades)? (I am with Ramona that the Lazarus/rich man story is not a parable but an instruction as to what the afterlife consisted of before the Cross.)

I don't know. My guess is that it was done for effect. That Saul being away from his troops would be in a "different place" mentally. If Samuel appeared back in camp, maybe Saul would have broke camp and run, or gone to food and drink or sleep. Afrter Samuel finished. it says Saul's strength was gone, he had fasted (by accident or on purpose???). Perhaps if he had been in camp and had food and been strong - he would have played off Samuel, God and the predictions and made excuses as Saul had been known to do in the past. In this setting Saul was forced to reflect on Samuel's words, and his mortality, and perhaps - repent.

The big prediction is Saul and his sons would be dead on the morrow. WOW! If you knew that what would you be doing the night before and all the next day? Maybe this was Saul's last chance to repent.

Scripture does not tell us if Saul repented (at least I don't think so) and people discuss it all the time as to Saul's fate. Samuel said, "and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me". I believe Samuel is in Sheol on the Abraham side. Jonathan would certainly be on that side after his death? Would Saul? Or would Saul be on the rich man's side of Hades suffering and in torment. We simply do not know. It all depends on if Saul turned back to God, repented and "believed".


Ramona posted:
"Jesus was the only one who came back to physical life but will NEVER die a physical death again. Those who are His will also be clothed with a body that will be eternal and incorruptible when He returns."

Like Ramona said - Christ is the first that died and would never die again. His resurrection broke the "sting" of death" - showing there is eternal life. Something he has been preaching all through John.

All your cited passages refer to that concept:

Acts: rise and show the light or knowledge that there is eternal life.

1Cor: Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept. The first of the harvest of souls that would go to heaven. (look up Jewish offering of first fruits and its symbolism in Christ.)

Col: Christ is the first to ascend to heaven followed by the saints - the church.


Now that I have violated two post rule. :(

John 11:12-15
His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

I to believe "absent from the body, present with the Lord", it is just that I think Lazarus was in Sheol as the story lazarus/richman instructs. The Father is omnipresent, so He is there on the paradise side. It is not heaven, but it is a "happy " place. I guess since non-belief results in separation from God, that although the Father is omnipresent , He is not on the "rich man's side" of Hades/Sheol. that is why that side of Hades is such a place of torment - especially if they can see the happy side across the chasm.

I do not believe anybody went to heaven until Christ ascended their first.

I will go on record as firmly rejecting the doctrine of "soul sleep". At death we are not just laying in the ground awaiting judgment day. (At least our spirit/soul is not).

I think we will find ample text (verses) on that as we get further in the New Testament.

BTW Urban legend has it that Lazarus only smiled once after he returned from the dead. Apparently he was not all that pleased to be back from "paradise". He ended up in Lanarca in Cyprus where his second tomb is located. (you can search: lazarus lanarca cyprus (tomb) to get some interesting reading.

Ramona and John:

Thanks both of you for this information. I KNEW it had to be something I just wasn't seeing, and you hit the bull's eye!

This absent from the body and present with the Lord concept is a difficult one for me to grasp. There are so many schools of thought on what happens when we die. We know we will stand before the white throne judgment and God will see Christ's righteousness, but when? After the rapture? At the moment of death? Then there is all this "near death experience tales" and it gets rather complex, so I cannot quite get my mind around this death thing, but I will reread these and try.

This is why fellowship with the saints is so important to me "...do not forsake the fellowshipping..."

God's love and blessings.


Added note on endor post: Samuel did not decide where Saul would go after death. He merely stated what God told him to say. God did not use medium - note her freaking out - God just used that occasion to allow Samuel to appear. Nowhere in text does it say that she even got going into her routine - just that all of a sudden she cried in a loud voice. (Again probably because it was not her normal routine). She was just a bit player who happened to be in that place at that time, but had no causal effect on the situation.

"Jesus said that nobody can come to Him unless the father draws him near..."

That is correct. Perhaps it would be of help to start writing down verses that indicate "election" in a notebook, and on another page those that "do not" seem to indicate "election".

Personally, I believe in "election" because without God's intervention - none of us would choose Him.

Literal translation of John 10:29

"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. (Young)

John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." NIV

They did not believe after Lazarus because they were not His sheep. The sheep given to him by His Father - the sheep He would never lose or let perish. You hear His voice if you are His sheep. You do not hear His voice and become His sheep.

Again, I understand many people do not like idea of election. and it should not affect our Daily walk - we have no idea who the elected are - so we are to spread the gospel with respect to everyone. "WHOMSOEVER WILL" is fine by me.


"We know we will stand before the white throne judgment and God will see Christ's righteousness, but when?"

Written too much today, and this is probably best left to further reading of the New Testament.

A couple of things - the only reference (and I could be wrong) to the white throne of judgment is in Rev. for the judgment of the "wicked".

Near death experiances - Personally I am leery of this area. People are not dead - their is a whole layer of principalities and powers over earth. I am not sure that a believer sees Heaven, angels, God, or Jesus until they die. A non-believer would see none of that anyway. To me - it is just another opportunity for Satan and his minions to distort what happens in the afterlife. When a near death experiance happens and the testimony has no mention of Jesus - a red flag goes up.

Good areas to look into are Salvation, Judgment, Glorified bodies, sanctification, rewards, and punishments.

yes, and you posted that text to Romayne that provided some further clarification. I think I am going to pull out my old Unger's Bible Dictionary and see what he has to say on this; I like most of what he says.

So much to learn; so little time. :)

Also, I see you are a John MacArthur disciple. I had the privilege of attending his church for two years back in the mid 1970s, and think he is "the bomb!" Got his Study Bible.

And, if I wanted to get serious instead of yanking all of your chains and asking you all to do my work for me, I would do a Kay Arthur Inductive study and get to the real meat of it, huh?

You can post 50 times a day if it is up to me. I like what you write.

Keep'em comin'

Things to think about:
1) The Bible says that "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."
2) Angels sometimes come in the form of men - good angels and bad. The Bible also talks about the spirits of devils working miracles - why would God work with a witch? Think about a fallen angel pretending to be Samuel. He would know all about what had been the life of Samuel and he could very well make someone kill Saul the next day if God didn't overrule. And how about mediums (witches) helping police solve crimes. Don't Satan and his angels know exactly what has happened and can relay that to the witches?
3) Is the Rapture Biblical? What do you do about I Thessalonians 5:16,17? Oh, I know what people say, that Jesus has to come back for the body.... but that's not quite what the Bible says here.
God bless in our continued study to know His truth.

Dora wrote:

1) The Bible says that "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."

God didn't write that Solomon did and he wrote it "under the sun," not under the Son. You must read the text in context and understand who is speaking: is it God or is it man thinking about God and his works. That statement is based on an observation. This type of thought will also be found in the Book of Job.

I'll leave the other two points (2 & 3) for someone else or for a latter time. I have to get ready for church.



#2 They do come in the form of men. I am just not sure they identify themselves as such. And how do we know which is which if they did? Sylvia "whatshername" claims she deals with angels and spirits all the time. I know the difference she says - "good angels (spirits) give off a bright light" and are beautiful. Really???? And Lucifer is called what?

The supposed miracles of Satan. Well, my understanding is that if a Demon causes something he can undo it. Or when a healing or miracle occurs it does not necessarily last or it is an imperfect cure. Satan is the Great imitator and in all his imitations of God he comes up short or it is flawed. (Just my belief).

Perhaps that is true of Samuel if he was an evil imitation - I just don't think that was the case - as I posted. But there a good many godly people who go along with you on your premise.

"Don't Satan and his angels know exactly what has happened and can relay that to the witches?"


#3 Rapture. Best discussed at a later date when we get to the appropriate text in the New Testament.


#1)Eccl 9:5
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."

Agree with Ramona and had an excerpt from commentary below. Context and message are important. My understanding of this is that the dead know nothing of the earthly life anymore. The life they have lived "under the sun" is over. Their earthly rewards are all they got, and they are done. Dead and done.

Vs. 4 has the idea I was looking for:
"Anyone who is among the living has hope.."


The living at least know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything about what’s going on in the world.
This verse is constantly used by false teachers to prove that the soul sleeps in death, that consciousness ceases when the last breath is taken. But it is senseless to build a doctrine of the hereafter on this verse, or on this book, for that matter. As has been repeatedly emphasized, Ecclesiastes represents man’s best conclusions as he searches for answers “under the sun.” It sets forth deductions based on observations and on logic but not on divine revelation. It is what a wise man might think if he did not have a Bible.
What would you think if you saw a person die and watched his body as it was lowered into the grave, knowing that it would eventually return to dust? You might think, That’s the end. My friend knows nothing now; he can’t enjoy any activities that are going on; he has forgotten and will soon be forgotten.

MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. 1997, c1995. Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

Thanks you all for your comments,I'm still chewing :) but I have to say I'm seeing a whole new side to the Samuel,witch thing now....
God bless you all

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