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1Cor15:29-58

All kinds of interpretations on this verse.

1Cor15:29 "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?" NIV

To me the key is - Paul does not say "we" here. He is not refering to the Corinthians. Eleusis, a nearby city, whose pagan religion practiced "baptism for the dead" may have had influence on Corinthians. Corinthians may not have practiced this "baptism for the dead". (No documentation anywhere that this parctice went on in Corinth.)But they may have argued for it or put it forth for consideration at the "assemblies".
http://www.carm.org/questions/baptismfordead.htm

If this is true, then Paul may be saying. Look, how can one even consider "baptism for the dead" if there is no bodily ressurection? (Paul does not condone the practice, but points out that the concept itself screams a "bodily ressurection.")
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"Bad company corrupts good character." from Menander's THAIS. ca. 300 BC

Menander was a Greek playwright who often moralized thoughts. Paul picks someone the Corinthians would know to exhibit that they need to come to their senses. We are to be in the world, yet separate. Corinthians are blurring the lines and trying to mix the "world" with God's Word. That is a sin, cut it out, and rely on Scripture. This worldly wisdom is messing up your thought process on the Ressurection. The key element of Christianity.
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"How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?"

It is a spiritual body and it will resemble Christ. It will be different - just like a seed looks like a seed, but the plant that comes from the seed (after seed died) looks different.

Through all the comparisons Paul makes of natural then spiritual. I would just like to point out that again - in vs. 45 Paul affirms Adam was a "real person".

I don't know what the spiritual body will look like. If it is true that the universe has at least nine dimensions as mathmeticians and physicists utilizing "string theory" claim - then God must have at least one more dimension. In this case, no wonder Jesus had to proclaim or reveal himself when he visited disciples after the crucifixion. Yet they could touch him and Jesus ate with them several times. Stuff to strange to figure out.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/11.05/MathematicalDan.html
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RAPTURE

Rapture concept comes from verses 51-53 here and 1Thes 4:13-18. Timing is not specifically the issue in these verses. Some Corinthians do not believe in the bodily ressurection, and Paul here says not only is there a bodily ressurection of the dead, but guess what - I got a mystery for you.

Mystery - some teach that mystery is something not revealed in the OT. Others say it is just something really difficult to grasp.

Regardless, Paul says,not only is there a ressurection of the dead, but those alive when Christ comes back will be changed (transformed). Paul uses "we" and as he has been talking to church - this refers to believers.

"We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"

Not all will be dead, but all (dead and alive) will be transformed.

This will happen quickly (flash, twinkling) at the last trumpet.

Much has been made of the last trumpet, and who knows who is right. Personally, I think it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to make it conform to Revelation verses or eschatology in general.

Let me give a simple way to look at it - it WILL BE at the last trumpet. In school (back in my day)there is a bell to dismiss a class, and a bell to mark when you should be in the next class.

If Christ, the last passover lamb, died at 3:00 pm on Passover like the gospels say - then it is possible that the passover lamb in the temple that day also was sacrificed at the exact same time. (Time period ranged from 2:30 to 3:30 pm for the temple sacrifice of passover lamb.)At the moment of sacrifice - the shofar (trumpet) was blown from the temple walls. This would be the first bell, indicating the time to dismiss class (leave the Mosaic covenant for the New covenant).

So now we are in the period of the "church".

Then the last trumpet here might just signify that this is the time to be in the new class (Heaven). Of course Christ will do it so quickly that we will not be late :)

Or the Last Trumpet may just signify the end of the "church age" - even simpler, yet still keeps the concept of the first trumpet being that shofar blast at Christ's death.

Just a thought.

Regardless the dead and alive (believers) will be transformed at that time - whenever it occurs.
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Timing becomes in issue when you look at the victory over death here and "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" in verse 26.

I guess they could be the same, but they may not be talking about the same thing. Victory over death could signify the idea of death being conquered in Christ (for believers) since this is when believers receive "glorified bodies". Death as the last enemy may refer to after the millenium - (people will die during the millenium), and finally the unbelievers will be raised, judged and sent to "lake of fire". that will be the final vanquishing of death. Everyone from then will exist eternally - in heaven or hell.

Job

The Participants in these arguments do not know God, because there has been no revelation by God.

There has been no revelation by God for the friends because they have put God in a box. They have figured God out, and they "talk" about God. How many Christians today do that? Do not seek to know God through His Word, but are comfortable with their perception of God and His ways as THEY understand it.

Job is addressing God ( a form of prayer), asking questions, and today wants a sitdown with God. Job wants to understand, and is seeking God. Job wants answers.

This is different perspective from his three friends. And it just struck me: WITHOUT THESE CALAMITIES HAPPENING TO JOB, MAYBE HE NEVER WOULD HAVE COME TO THIS PLACE. Maybe Job would have remained in the same mindset of his friends. Perhaps this is not about God proving something to Satan, as much as a means to get "man" to desire to KNOW God. What God reveals to Job will not be what he wants to know - but it will be what Job (and us) need to know.
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JOB REPLIES TO ZOPHAR

Job is geting tired of the same argument being presented over and over. Strikes back:

'You are so smart, doubtless the earth will be left without wisdom when you die.' (OUCH) He understands the concept of God as well as they do, but they are not looking at it from Job's perspective of misfortune.

The unjust seem to prevail, while I suffer.

Acknowledges God controls all life, and God controls the fate of nations.

Job wants to argue his case before God.

Job’s friends are “worthless physicians” and smear Job with lies - it would be better if you were silent - that would be wisdom (OUCH II).

vs. 15a "Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him" NIV or "trust" in Him. Job may be forlorn, but he has not lost his faith.

Job challenges God: withdraw your hand, and let's talk.

Job’s prayer: “why do you hide your face” Used in Psalm 13, 44, 88.

Life is short and full of trouble, even the mountains pass away.

Yet, in vs 13 and 14 Job questions God with thoughts of death and ressurection.

End of round 1. Theme: helplessness of Natural Man.
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ELIPHAZ TAKES THE GLOVES OFF.

The more diplomatic one of the friends now turns to a harsher tone.

Job condemns himself with his own words.

Job has no special revelation. (NOTE: But in his own way Job is seeking that special revelation).

No human is righteous. Fate of the wicked is destruction = precisely the situation of Job.

So repent of your sin.
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What are his Friends doing? Accusing or comforting job. Satan is the great Accuser of the righteous. I am becoming more convinced that the friends inspiration for arguments is not from their limited knowledge of God, but that limited knowledge inspired by Satan taken to a "locked in" thought process.

Remember Eliphaz's vision. Perhaps that was not a vision from God?????

Job 12-15:35
I have always been fascinated with the eleventh verse of chapter 12. Well, not always but ever sense this verse spoke to me about five years ago, I let it roll around in my mind. The Amplified Bible reads as follows,

Is it not the task of the ear to discriminate between [wise and unwise] words, just as the mouth distinguishes [between desirable and undesirable] food? (Job 12:11 AMP). Taken by itself this verse would just be Job making a comment on what he has observed in life. But Jesus stated in the Book of John in answer to Pilate asking Him if He was King,

… You say it! [You speak correctly!] For I am a King. [Certainly I am a King!] This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who is of the Truth [who is a friend of the Truth, who belongs to the Truth] hears and listens to My voice. (John 18:37 AMP)

Paul spoke in his letter to the Romans,

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.] (Romans 1:24-25 AMP)

There are at least three witnesses in scripture that imply or say outright we know Truth when we hear it. We reject Truth because we have made a chose to reject it. Our ears have the capacity to discern Truth. If we make a choice to be a companion of Truth, we will hear Jesus’ voice, not only hear his voice but listen. If we are not dealing in Truth that means we have exchanged it for a lie. To exchange something one must have it in one’s possession. You cannot exchange what you don’t have.

Believers and unbelievers alike misquote and mangle this verse,

And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free. (John 8:32 AMP)

This verse is dependent on the verse before it, 31, and cannot be separated from its subordinate clause,

So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word [hold fast to My teachings and live in accordance with them], you are truly My disciples.
(John 8:31 AMP). I believe that one cannot know the Truth unless you are continuing in Jesus’ Word, thus becoming a disciple. When you are a disciple then Truth will be known to you. This has to happen this way because Jesus is the Truth.
(John 14:6) Jesus replied,13 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life.14 No one comes to the Father except through me.

I know people who have searched every religion trying to find truth, looked under every rock and climbed all manner of trees looking for truth. Thinking they had found that truth, they hung out with the false truth for a while, but restless and desirous of something they didn’t have, they continued on their journey until they heard the voice of Jesus. Because they were looking for Truth, they heard His voice.

Regarding Truth, Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible states,

The truth - The source of truth, or he who originates and communicates truth for the salvation of men. Truth is a representation of things as they are. The life, the purity, and the teaching of Jesus Christ was the most complete and perfect representation of the things of the eternal world that has been or can be presented to man. The ceremonies of the Jews were shadows; the life of Jesus was the truth. The opinions of men are fancy, but the doctrines of Jesus were nothing more than a representation of facts as they exist in the government of God. It is implied in this, also, that Jesus was the fountain of all truth; that by his inspiration the prophets spoke, and that by him all truth is communicated to men. See the notes at Joh 1:17.

There is much to think on.

I think that it is quite interesting that both the writers of Psalm 39 and Job 14 have the brevity of life on their minds and that both readings should occur on the same day in our annual journey. I especially like Job's description of life: "How frail is humanity! How short is life, and how full of trouble! Like a flower, we blossom for a moment and then wither. Like the shadow of a passing cloud, we quickly disappear."

Maybe the Lord is speaking to us today to rethink our lives and priorities to make sure they are in line with Him. Just a thought!

Reading Job alongside the Psalms reminds me how many of the psalms could have been written by Job because they reflect his experience so well. Life is hard, but our hope is not in ourselves, but in God.

Regarding The Book of Job - in the chronological Bible, Job is the second book after Genesis (if my memory serves me well).

If any one knows this for sure, please confirm/verify.

Regarding Mike's comments: "Old Testament - I forgot how much trash-talking goes on here in the book of Job! It occurred to me that all of this bickering back and forth between Job and his friends keeps transpiring without Satan coming up in their comments at all. Meaning, no one seems to realize that Satan is the one who has afflicted Job! And I'm wondering if this happens in our lives today as well? Do we sometimes miss it when Satan is literally attacking us? Do we blame others? Blame ourselves? Maybe even blame God? When the blame should be directed at the Deceiver? I think Job and his friends could have used Michael the Archangel to come into the picture here and whoop up on Satan like he's doing in this painting below from the year 1518 by the Italian artist Raphael:"

The one very most important lesson to be learned from Job is this - satan only has the power that God allows him & no more. God allowed satan to sift Job as he does us - usually to help us to become the image of Christ. There is nothing that affects the true sons & daughters of God that is not sifted through His hands first.

satan is a “functionary” by a divine purpose/person/God!!!

I refuse to capitailize his name/satan - but we are advised/warned in the scriptures to give him/satan respect & rebuke him only through God & that is not always the case in this day & time. If anyone can find the 2 scriptures I refer to - would you please, I don't have my Strong's Concordance here at work & I don't like the one online - much harder to find.

jan

Job 13 (NKJV)
4
But you forgers of lies, you are all worthless physicians.
5
Oh, that you would be silent, and it would be your wisdom!

13
“Hold your peace with me, and let me speak, then let come on me what may!
14
Why do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in my hands?
15
Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
16
He also shall be my salvation, for a hypocrite could not come before Him.

NOTE:
verses 4 and 5 make me think of James 1 (NKJV):
19
So then, [Know this or This you know] my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;
20
for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
~~~

What an amazing verse! Job clearly does not understand what is happening to him, nor why? He knows God is in control. He may not have insight into the devil
"licking his lips with delight", asking God to let him harm Job.

Job’s persistent determined faith is truly a precious thing here. If Satan thought he could turn Job aside, he clearly was wrong.

May you and I set our wills and minds in dependence on the Holy Spirit and the Word of God through prayer, worship and praise in such a way. May we be like Job, as highlighted in James 5 (NKJV)
7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.
10
My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.
11
Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

Also, may we NOT be like Job’s “friends”, also as in James 5 (NKJV):
9
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned [judged]. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!
~~~

I Corinthians 15 (NKJV)
33
Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
34
Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

NOTE:
Job, in his particular case, did not choose to spend time around his “friends” during his severe and frightening trial. They came to him.

Yet, we can choose our friends. May we choose wisely. Life is like a spider web: If you gently push on a spider web on one side, every other part of the web is affected. Life is like that. The friends and consistent company we keep will affect our spiritual life.

We need to always brush shoulders with non Christians so they can hear and see the Lord Jesus in us by the working of the Spirit through us.

Yet, we need friends to inspire and challenge us to follow after Christ with all we have and all we are.

I Corinthians 15 (NKJV)
49
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear [NOTE: or, let us also bear] the image of the heavenly Man.

56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

NOTE:
I like the note added on verse 49: “Let us also bear" the image of the heavenly Man.

May we set our wills and minds to seek the Lord in praise and worship so we do just that. The world can hear truth from us—and there is no lack of words in the world.

The world hungers to see the Lord Jesus in us as we live and speak in the power of the Spirit.

We can only “be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord” through the Holy Spirit of Jesus working through us.

Psalm 39 (NKJV)
1
I said, “I will guard my ways, lest I sin with my tongue; I will restrain my mouth with a muzzle, while the wicked are before me.”

NOTE:
Words are never “neutral”. Words consistently spoken are believed. They are like seeds which grow up to develop fruit.

May we only speak life so we can guard our ways and our hearts.

Proverbs 18 (NKJV)
20
A man’s stomach shall be satisfied from the fruit of his mouth; from the produce of his lips he shall be filled.
21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

Vance


Job 12-15:35

What is a friend? Job has these three “friends” surrounding him yet he finds himself defending himself from their accusations. Not only is Job arguing with them but he is also pleading his case before God. Job is wearing himself out using his words as a verbal defenses. I don’t know how it is with anyone else but when I find myself in a situation like Job is in, I become both mentally and physically exhausted. Here is a definition of a friend that I’ve heard on several occasions and have adopted it as my own. A friend is someone who knows everything about you and still likes you. It doesn’t seem to me that Job’s so called friends really liked him—their companionship was based on specific conditions. Job had to be healthy, wealthy and posses a wisdom they personally approved.

Am I a friend like Job’s friends—one that only encourages when someone doesn’t really need encouragement? When the money is gone do a gripe, accuse? Is my silence one of silent prayer and intercession or am I quietly imagining all the things they must have done wrong?

WORRY ABOUT NOTHING!
PRAY ABOUT EVERYTHING!

Very good point regarding satan attacking and no one mentioning it. I have trouble with a coworker, i just cant stand him!! I always pray God will help me love him. I went off by myself today at work to pray a bit and was thinking I hope God removes him from that job or changes him, but then I thought, no... rather God, change me! But good point...its not so much this fellow that is driving me nuts, satan is using this to attack me. Its not even so much this guy, aside from him being highly obnoxious and intolerable, satan is jumping on this to rile me up, perhaps even exaggerating the matter. Is it just me or does there always seem to be one coworker who just gets on our nerves so bad. I always pray about it and 1 or 2 things happens, they are removed, or, more often God changes me and i end up loving the person, really adoring them!
so far with this guy i mentioned, neither has happened. i just need patience. its tough!

In reference to Job and assigning blame for his problems to Satan, I do not understand the original interaction between God and Satan. This did occur before Jesus' death and resurrection, so maybe our advocate was not available to speak up for Job. Satan asked permission to test Job, and God granted it. So Job and his friends are right to give responsibility to God for the horrible suffering he had to endure.
Today if Satan is allowed in God's presence, a disturbing thought, God could point out any one of millions of believers around the world and say, "Have you seen my child _____? They are washed in the blood of my Son and lining a rightous life."

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